The Doctor's Wife
9 Jun 2011 11:57 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
I really, really didn't like the big reveal in the last episode at first, but I'm gradually coming around by realizing it's a lot more complex and interesting than it seems on the surface. Then I realized this:
I think it very possible that the TARDIS made River so that the Doctor wouldn't be alone. Or, at the very least, that she stacked the deck [ETA: much discussion of the creepiness of this in the comments, with meta-y implications]:

From "The Doctor's Wife" we learn:
1) The TARDIS exists in all of time and space and can see futures.
2) She stole him.
3) She always takes him where he needs to go (like, say, Amy's house).
4) She can't talk with him all the time, but she loves him.
5) She seemed very preoccupied with River right before she died--asking for water and repeating the line about the forrest.
In 6x07 we learn exposure to the time vortex during conception causes pseudo Time Lord-y-ness! Somehow the idea that the TARDIS rigged things makes me more willing to accept the timehead explanation, which I found pretty lame at first . . .
And then there's the stuff that's more just suggestive:
1) That very ambiguous episode title: "The Doctor's Wife."
I think it very possible that the TARDIS made River so that the Doctor wouldn't be alone. Or, at the very least, that she stacked the deck [ETA: much discussion of the creepiness of this in the comments, with meta-y implications]:

From "The Doctor's Wife" we learn:
1) The TARDIS exists in all of time and space and can see futures.
2) She stole him.
3) She always takes him where he needs to go (like, say, Amy's house).
4) She can't talk with him all the time, but she loves him.
5) She seemed very preoccupied with River right before she died--asking for water and repeating the line about the forrest.
In 6x07 we learn exposure to the time vortex during conception causes pseudo Time Lord-y-ness! Somehow the idea that the TARDIS rigged things makes me more willing to accept the timehead explanation, which I found pretty lame at first . . .
And then there's the stuff that's more just suggestive:
1) That very ambiguous episode title: "The Doctor's Wife."
2) The echoed "hello" greetings with both the TARDIS and River.
3) All the TARDISes were dead, but together they built a new TARDIS--"It's not impossible as long as we're alive." All the Time Lords were dead, so she built him a new Time Lord?
4) Of course the TARDIS routes calls to her and keeps her from exploding.
5) "She's the TARDIS, and she's a woman!" "Did you wish really hard?"
6) It's all rather Adam's rib, which I find a bit :-\ But then on the other hand, that is rather delightfully meta since, as a character of course, River was written for the Doctor, so I think I prefer that the text acknowledge that? Also River has an apple on the shelf in her cell in Stormcage. Or she did last season--it seems to be missing now, which the obsessive part of my brain really wants to mean something.
Now I'm just trying to decide if this was a wholly unselfish move on the TARDIS's part, or if she wants timebabies who could pilot her after he's dead . . .
ETA: Been stuck on this vid of late, and since it's gorgeous and oh so relevant (Doctor/TARDIS), might as well do a pimp: Suzanne, by
such_heights .
Also been having to remind myself that, as incongruous as the "River is Amy and Rory's daughter" reveal seemed, the way Moff's written it, it's actually all tied up in all the themes and ideas I was thinking about, oooh, last July, and had since gotten bored of and moved on from. *smacks head to dislodge thoughts*
ETA: Been stuck on this vid of late, and since it's gorgeous and oh so relevant (Doctor/TARDIS), might as well do a pimp: Suzanne, by
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
Also been having to remind myself that, as incongruous as the "River is Amy and Rory's daughter" reveal seemed, the way Moff's written it, it's actually all tied up in all the themes and ideas I was thinking about, oooh, last July, and had since gotten bored of and moved on from. *smacks head to dislodge thoughts*
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Date: 10 Jun 2011 04:12 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 10 Jun 2011 05:08 am (UTC)I also think it's very suggestive that the TARDIS asked for water before she died--she was not human, and I would not have expected her to request water even in her dying human body.
I'd never quite thought of it that way, but I could see that.
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Date: 10 Jun 2011 04:22 am (UTC)Of course, she wasn't counting on River being taken and fashioned into a ninja assassin super-weapon thing, poor dear.
<333
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Date: 10 Jun 2011 04:51 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 10 Jun 2011 04:56 am (UTC)And because she's all those things, she has the authority to give him that speech at the end and say, essentially, choose! And that will shape him in turn . . .
It's all so self-referential and neatly twisted around!
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Date: 10 Jun 2011 04:45 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 10 Jun 2011 04:54 am (UTC)That's not to say that this theory is wrong in fact or wrong to embrace. It's just not all fluffy and happy to me. It has dark corners and I usually like to have dark corners. After all, one could say by this same thread of reasoning that the TARDIS has fashioned what the Doctor has become too.
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Date: 10 Jun 2011 05:06 am (UTC)And it is very, very myth/fairytale . . .
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Date: 10 Jun 2011 07:08 am (UTC)Now I'm just trying to decide if this was a wholly unselfish move on the TARDIS's part, or if she wants timebabies who could pilot her after he's dead . . .
Now I *swear*, the second I read your theory, my mind jumped immediately to this fic (which I've had as canon in my head for a long time, I think): Scymnus (But all children are ungrateful.) Actually, I also thought of it after watching The Doctor' Wife for the first time, and it is still perfect. All it needs is to change 'Pilot' to 'Thief'.
(Haven't had time to read the comments yet, hope I'm not repeating what everyone else is saying...)
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Date: 14 Jun 2011 04:21 am (UTC)Now I *swear*, the second I read your theory, my mind jumped immediately to this fic
Oh, that is indeed perfect (and really, really gorgeous). Thanks <3
(Haven't had time to read the comments yet, hope I'm not repeating what everyone else is saying...)
Not as such, no ; )
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Date: 10 Jun 2011 09:07 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14 Jun 2011 06:02 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 10 Jun 2011 09:28 am (UTC)But the idea that she did it on purpose is a step too far for me, right now. Basically because at the moment a large part of my being okay with the revelation is that her being Pond Jr is mainly just the mechanism by which she is part bloody Time Lord. A mechanism with enormous emotional repercussions, to be sure, but nonetheless, not the shocking reveal that will send subterranean tremors through the rest of the show.
Originally I was always quite wary of the idea of her being a Time Lady because I felt like part of her amazingness was her inexplicable existence without it having to be justified, and turning her into a Time Lady felt too much like having to justify her awesome. Now, though, it feels like the mitigating factor – something to ensure her own agency, to give her an understanding of temporal mechanics and cause and effect and choice so that I can still see her as independent within the scope of her life.
Straight up, whether or not she ultimately chooses to align with it, or rails against that choicelessness within the text, I’m not that taken with yet another deconstruction of the way the Doctor grooms girls, whether the child of his best friends’ or his spaceship. I guess partly because I feel Amy’s story was the one in which to do this and partly because I don’t think that making it explicit in the text either implies the kind of discussion I would like, (i.e. the one that does not suggest the messed up nature of it is actually romantic; but then, nearly no one else ever agrees with me that Wuthering Heights is a horror story), or makes it a story that needs to be told? Or rather, makes it a better story than the one where River defies that convention rather than calling it out? Because that’s part of what I liked about her was that she was so loudly not conforming to that role?
You’re right to say that, narratively speaking, the Doctor is the eponymous hero – the narrative and characters bend around him – it’s perhaps unrealistic to expect otherwise, but part of what I found so glorious and so startling about River was that she was a character that genuinely and inexplicably, bent the Doctor’s narrative around her.
Logically everything she did remains the same, but emotionally I’m not sure that the parts of her shaping him can ever be as powerful as the reverse anymore?
But the degree to which that can happen is rooted in her continuing independence, which is now, I think, tied to her Time Lady nature. What I want is for her to continue to be startling and to change the Doctor too. I think there is a fair chance of this happening? But I also think I can more emotionally engage with it if she was a brilliant accident, or only intentional in the way that Sexy is half-mad and not really thought out. Otherwise, the Adam’s rib subtext is just way too much, and not something I think can be deconstructed given the power of that symbolism, while still ultimately having her be his wife. Which would sadden me?
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Date: 10 Jun 2011 03:39 pm (UTC)I think it is already happening. Partly in the way she shapes him every time they meet, but specifically in the big showdown. She holds up a mirror and says 'Change, or face the consequences' (some of which we have already seen when he gets locked in the Pandorica). And the thing is, that watching that scene I can't help but think that 'Words Win Wars'. She was created as a weapon to bring him down. And that is... exactly what she's doing. Not bluntly, physically, but by forcing him to see what he's become. She is, in ways those who stole her could not have envisaged, hope.
Also, she is his biggest failure, pretty much. Not only couldn't he save her, she was stolen because of him. Which means that her words carry an enormous amount of weight... I'm getting flashbacks to the Buffy fandom now, since I can just imagine the way people will complain that she has 'taken over the show'. (Oh, I fall for the same pairing EVERY TIME! *laughs*)
Oh dear I must run now, hope you don't mind me throwing scattered thoughts at you...
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Date: 10 Jun 2011 11:35 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14 Jun 2011 06:00 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 10 Jun 2011 08:16 pm (UTC)I picked up the Adam's rib symbology. Also the idea of her being the Messiah to the Dark Side, emphasised in Episode Seven (creepy headless monks et al). Marry these together, and you have a duality to River - she could be the Doctor's greatest ally or greatest enemy. I suspect she will grow up with a dark side as a result of her unsettled beginnings, however the fact she overcomes this to be a kick-ass superhero and the Doctor's Wife, does a lot for feminism in the series. So long as they play it out properly and don't make her too much a product of her upbringing - she has to be given some point in her life when she has the leeway to make her own choices and therefore choose to be good.
I also wondered if 'The Doctor's Wife' had a double-meaning, since Moff was clearly tapping into all the speculation about River when titling this story. I loved Suranne Jones' portrayal of the TARDIS - motherly yet sexy at the same time - and it taps into how the TARDIS was the sun at the end of last series. She was radiant. And in some ways, I can see something of Idris in River, and wonder if she gave her more than just a Time Head, but the thirst for adventure that goes with it (not to say Amy doesn't have enough of that herself).
I'm excited about how this is going to play out. I hope Moffatt isn't going to rush the ending to River's story now we know who she is - I want this to be a continual arc over several series.
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Date: 14 Jun 2011 05:56 pm (UTC)Agree with you very much that a lot of how I feel about River's story is going to hinge on how it develops from here and especially on how much choice she's shown to exercise in shaping her own life. There is a lot of potential there. I also like how, even with River being kidnapped as a baby and raised as a weapon against the Doctor, this is not a matter of her being "evil." The Doctor's culpability here is front and center, and River makes a very explicit point about fear and the effects it has on people--this story has moral nuance built right into its foundations.
I too hope Moff won't rush the ending, but I rather doubt he will. He's shown himself highly patient so far. Already I'm thinking the story of who River killed and why will probably be one for next season?
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Date: 11 Jun 2011 05:01 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14 Jun 2011 05:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 15 Jun 2011 09:06 am (UTC)The one thing that doesn't sit well with me with the whole River-as-a-Time-Lady and wee!River/space suit girl being able to use the regeneration glow, is that if River is a Time Lady, wouldn't she would have been able to regenerate in the Library? I know it's been established that Time Lords can be killed if they are over-killed/killed twice before they can regenerate, but I don't remember River's death as being bad enough to prevent that. I think, with the Time Head thing, River would have about the same ability as Jenny. More of a healing, not a regeneration. But I'm guessing less, otherwise we're back at the death in the Library issue. I hope that made sense.
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Date: 15 Jun 2011 04:18 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 21 Jun 2011 08:33 pm (UTC)This post, but as fic. ♥
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Date: 26 Jun 2011 11:12 am (UTC)I also love the significance of Idris asking for water. People are right in saying why would she ask for water if she wasn't actually human and didn't understand her human body (or it's need for water). So maybe she was asking for River (names are funny things remember...)
I also no longer think she was telling Team TARDIS that 'The only water in the forest is the river' but rather saying what River says in AGMGTW, more evidence to show she has a strong link with River. :)
Seriously love this idea though <3
As Moffat said, there are many layers to River Song.
SGC
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Date: 1 Jul 2011 11:48 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2 Jul 2011 04:02 pm (UTC)First noticed the similarities when reading this: Time has a curious presence upon the river... The people of the river are suspended in the river's time, which has some deep affinity with a world that existed before the concept of time itself. Perhaps we will come to describe it as timeless. It runs in an eternal present that, according to philosophers, is the one part of time that does not really exist. But if it were to be stilled, it would lose its identity.
and
There is an old and continually used expression attached to the river. It is the sense of being 'suspended in time', a notion that suggests the slight sway backwards and forwards. It is the almost imperceivable motion of expectation and remembrance, poised between two worlds. And of course there are occasions when, if you gaze at one spot long enough, so that it seems to detach itself from the flow, time stops. Is this the quality of timelessness? Or is it merely an absence, a gap, to which can be attributed no characteristic at all?
This part seemed to be a good description of the Doctor/River relationship:
It is worth considering that, when you set out upon the river, you become in some way detached from the mundane world. That world becomes more remoted, as if in passing from land to water you had crossed other boundary. The feeling is akin once more to that of being 'suspended'. It may be that you have passed into a different time, or at least a different sense of time. For some, of course, the joy of entering the river is the sensation of 'escaping' from time altogether.
This bit made me think of the Doctor:
The natural occupation of the river-wanderer, set free from the world of days and hours in order to soar among dreams. Those who dream by the river may dream of the future as well as of the past.
This bit make me think of the TARDIS:
The writers and dreamers on the river, such as Lewis Carroll, always have a curiously malleable attitude towards spaces and places. They make them infinitely small or infinitely large.
This bit made me think of the first time we met River in the Library:
Water is the melancholy element. Everything is dissolved within it. There are people who come to the banks of the river in order to experience forgetfulness. The sight of the river can obliterate thought, and kill observation. It can even erase memory. It absorbs everything. It can induce sleep and oblivion, as well as contemplation.
Apologies for the random comment but I couldn't believe it when I read the chapter and needed to share and I thought you might be interested!
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Date: 2 Sep 2011 03:07 am (UTC)But now the new season has started and there's far too much to keep up with and AAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!11 And basically I am cleaning my browser up to the best of my ability lest I drown.
Anyway, I absolutely love these snippets and agree with your comparisons a great deal (also, omg, Lewis Carroll <333). Thank you so much for thinking to share them with me and typing them up!
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Date: 7 Aug 2011 05:23 am (UTC)So basically. SQUEE TIME AND WHEN DOES EP 8 AIR???
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Date: 2 Sep 2011 03:09 am (UTC)