promethia_tenk: (bigger on the inside)
[personal profile] promethia_tenk
I really, really didn't like the big reveal in the last episode at first, but I'm gradually coming around by realizing it's a lot more complex and interesting than it seems on the surface.  Then I realized this:

I think it very possible that the TARDIS made River so that the Doctor wouldn't be alone.  Or, at the very least, that she stacked the deck [ETA: much discussion of the creepiness of this in the comments, with meta-y implications]:



From "The Doctor's Wife" we learn:

1) The TARDIS exists in all of time and space and can see futures.
2) She stole him.
3) She always takes him where he needs to go (like, say, Amy's house).
4) She can't talk with him all the time, but she loves him.
5) She seemed very preoccupied with River right before she died--asking for water and repeating the line about the forrest.

In 6x07 we learn exposure to the time vortex during conception causes pseudo Time Lord-y-ness!  Somehow the idea that the TARDIS rigged things makes me more willing to accept the timehead explanation, which I found pretty lame at first . . .

And then there's the stuff that's more just suggestive:

1) That very ambiguous episode title: "The Doctor's Wife."
2) The echoed "hello" greetings with both the TARDIS and River.
3) All the TARDISes were dead, but together they built a new TARDIS--"It's not impossible as long as we're alive."  All the Time Lords were dead, so she built him a new Time Lord?
4) Of course the TARDIS routes calls to her and keeps her from exploding.
5) "She's the TARDIS, and she's a woman!"  "Did you wish really hard?"
6) It's all rather Adam's rib, which I find a bit :-\  But then on the other hand, that is rather delightfully meta since, as a character of course, River was written for the Doctor, so I think I prefer that the text acknowledge that?  Also River has an apple on the shelf in her cell in Stormcage.  Or she did last season--it seems to be missing now, which the obsessive part of my brain really wants to mean something.
 
Now I'm just trying to decide if this was a wholly unselfish move on the TARDIS's part, or if she wants timebabies who could pilot her after he's dead . . .

ETA: Been stuck on this vid of late, and since it's gorgeous and oh so relevant (Doctor/TARDIS), might as well do a pimp: Suzanne, by [livejournal.com profile] such_heights .

Also been having to remind myself that, as incongruous as the "River is Amy and Rory's daughter" reveal seemed, the way Moff's written it, it's actually all tied up in all the themes and ideas I was thinking about, oooh, last July, and had since gotten bored of and moved on from.  *smacks head to dislodge thoughts*
 

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Date: 10 Jun 2011 04:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bendingwind.livejournal.com
I am with you 100% on this. I was wondering even before the reveal if River wasn't somehow linked to the TARDIS, though I was thinking more along the lines of what Idris turned out to be. It seems likely to me that the TARDIS did intervene to some degree to ensure the creation of River. I also think it's very suggestive that the TARDIS asked for water before she died--she was not human, and I would not have expected her to request water even in her dying human body.

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Date: 10 Jun 2011 04:22 am (UTC)
owlboy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] owlboy
(waving hands in giddy glee)
Of course, she wasn't counting on River being taken and fashioned into a ninja assassin super-weapon thing, poor dear.

<333

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Date: 10 Jun 2011 04:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cinderbella333.livejournal.com
Or maybe she was. The Doctor shouldn't like that . . .but kind of does, a bit.

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Date: 10 Jun 2011 04:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladymercury-10.livejournal.com
That's kind of lovely and at the same time, really disturbing. Which would be very Moffat....

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Date: 10 Jun 2011 04:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cinderbella333.livejournal.com
*points up* That's my response. It disturbs me a bit. So River was made, like a present for the Doctor? This triggers the same warning bells as when I discuss grooming.

That's not to say that this theory is wrong in fact or wrong to embrace. It's just not all fluffy and happy to me. It has dark corners and I usually like to have dark corners. After all, one could say by this same thread of reasoning that the TARDIS has fashioned what the Doctor has become too.

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Date: 10 Jun 2011 07:08 am (UTC)
elisi: Edwin and Charles (Effulgent by llorona_llorona)
From: [personal profile] elisi
Just v. quickly: I love this. ♥

Now I'm just trying to decide if this was a wholly unselfish move on the TARDIS's part, or if she wants timebabies who could pilot her after he's dead . . .
Now I *swear*, the second I read your theory, my mind jumped immediately to this fic (which I've had as canon in my head for a long time, I think): Scymnus (But all children are ungrateful.) Actually, I also thought of it after watching The Doctor' Wife for the first time, and it is still perfect. All it needs is to change 'Pilot' to 'Thief'.

(Haven't had time to read the comments yet, hope I'm not repeating what everyone else is saying...)

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Date: 10 Jun 2011 09:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darkraku.livejournal.com
I just realised something, the girl in the suit asks for help right after Ganger Amy evidently feels the baby inside her kicking. All the while the baby is asking for help. The minute Amy tells The Doctor she is pregnant, the girl reveals herself. I don't know why but this leads me to belive that the little girl wasn't even talking about the Silence, but rather the Eye Patch Lady. I don't know how this relates to everything, but because by this point she has already been born she already has become aware that evil people are after her.

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Date: 10 Jun 2011 09:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] beccatoria.livejournal.com
See, the thing is, like you, I was very disappointed initially (and still kind of am, to be honest) but also like you I am coming around to it, largely because of the wider implications and what it means for the character. But, while I find the connection between River and the TARDIS fascinating (I mean, it pretty much looks like, now, Sexy was blown up to prevent River’s existence: the thematics of her burning at the centre of time, in an infinite loop of existence/non-existence, within the very thing that brought her into being is an extra layer of creation/destruction/metagasm). And I don’t doubt for a second that there is a connection there – what layers does this add to the rerouted Stormcage call? Is she the child of Amy, Rory and that brand new, ancient, borrowed blue box? Quite possibly; thematically almost certainly.

But the idea that she did it on purpose is a step too far for me, right now. Basically because at the moment a large part of my being okay with the revelation is that her being Pond Jr is mainly just the mechanism by which she is part bloody Time Lord. A mechanism with enormous emotional repercussions, to be sure, but nonetheless, not the shocking reveal that will send subterranean tremors through the rest of the show.

Originally I was always quite wary of the idea of her being a Time Lady because I felt like part of her amazingness was her inexplicable existence without it having to be justified, and turning her into a Time Lady felt too much like having to justify her awesome. Now, though, it feels like the mitigating factor – something to ensure her own agency, to give her an understanding of temporal mechanics and cause and effect and choice so that I can still see her as independent within the scope of her life.

Straight up, whether or not she ultimately chooses to align with it, or rails against that choicelessness within the text, I’m not that taken with yet another deconstruction of the way the Doctor grooms girls, whether the child of his best friends’ or his spaceship. I guess partly because I feel Amy’s story was the one in which to do this and partly because I don’t think that making it explicit in the text either implies the kind of discussion I would like, (i.e. the one that does not suggest the messed up nature of it is actually romantic; but then, nearly no one else ever agrees with me that Wuthering Heights is a horror story), or makes it a story that needs to be told? Or rather, makes it a better story than the one where River defies that convention rather than calling it out? Because that’s part of what I liked about her was that she was so loudly not conforming to that role?

You’re right to say that, narratively speaking, the Doctor is the eponymous hero – the narrative and characters bend around him – it’s perhaps unrealistic to expect otherwise, but part of what I found so glorious and so startling about River was that she was a character that genuinely and inexplicably, bent the Doctor’s narrative around her.

Logically everything she did remains the same, but emotionally I’m not sure that the parts of her shaping him can ever be as powerful as the reverse anymore?

But the degree to which that can happen is rooted in her continuing independence, which is now, I think, tied to her Time Lady nature. What I want is for her to continue to be startling and to change the Doctor too. I think there is a fair chance of this happening? But I also think I can more emotionally engage with it if she was a brilliant accident, or only intentional in the way that Sexy is half-mad and not really thought out. Otherwise, the Adam’s rib subtext is just way too much, and not something I think can be deconstructed given the power of that symbolism, while still ultimately having her be his wife. Which would sadden me?

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Date: 10 Jun 2011 03:39 pm (UTC)
elisi: Edwin and Charles (Hands by speckleberry)
From: [personal profile] elisi
But the degree to which that can happen is rooted in her continuing independence, which is now, I think, tied to her Time Lady nature. What I want is for her to continue to be startling and to change the Doctor too. I think there is a fair chance of this happening?
I think it is already happening. Partly in the way she shapes him every time they meet, but specifically in the big showdown. She holds up a mirror and says 'Change, or face the consequences' (some of which we have already seen when he gets locked in the Pandorica). And the thing is, that watching that scene I can't help but think that 'Words Win Wars'. She was created as a weapon to bring him down. And that is... exactly what she's doing. Not bluntly, physically, but by forcing him to see what he's become. She is, in ways those who stole her could not have envisaged, hope.

Also, she is his biggest failure, pretty much. Not only couldn't he save her, she was stolen because of him. Which means that her words carry an enormous amount of weight... I'm getting flashbacks to the Buffy fandom now, since I can just imagine the way people will complain that she has 'taken over the show'. (Oh, I fall for the same pairing EVERY TIME! *laughs*)

Oh dear I must run now, hope you don't mind me throwing scattered thoughts at you...

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From: [identity profile] beccatoria.livejournal.com - Date: 10 Jun 2011 04:54 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 10 Jun 2011 11:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thette.livejournal.com
My mind, as always, turns to fanfic. I wondered if there had been any other explicitly romantic couples (Rose and Mickey definitely do not count) on the TARDIS, and I want to write something about the child of Barbara and Ian.

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Date: 10 Jun 2011 08:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sarahandcocoa.livejournal.com
This was kinda the theory I cobbled together a day or so before episode 7. I'm not altogether happy with it - I would have much preferred for her to have been a human, who he met in a similar way to how he met his other companions, but was intellectually capable of being his equal. It sort of sends out the message that no normal human being is good enough for our Doctor. But moving on from that...

I picked up the Adam's rib symbology. Also the idea of her being the Messiah to the Dark Side, emphasised in Episode Seven (creepy headless monks et al). Marry these together, and you have a duality to River - she could be the Doctor's greatest ally or greatest enemy. I suspect she will grow up with a dark side as a result of her unsettled beginnings, however the fact she overcomes this to be a kick-ass superhero and the Doctor's Wife, does a lot for feminism in the series. So long as they play it out properly and don't make her too much a product of her upbringing - she has to be given some point in her life when she has the leeway to make her own choices and therefore choose to be good.

I also wondered if 'The Doctor's Wife' had a double-meaning, since Moff was clearly tapping into all the speculation about River when titling this story. I loved Suranne Jones' portrayal of the TARDIS - motherly yet sexy at the same time - and it taps into how the TARDIS was the sun at the end of last series. She was radiant. And in some ways, I can see something of Idris in River, and wonder if she gave her more than just a Time Head, but the thirst for adventure that goes with it (not to say Amy doesn't have enough of that herself).

I'm excited about how this is going to play out. I hope Moffatt isn't going to rush the ending to River's story now we know who she is - I want this to be a continual arc over several series.

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Date: 11 Jun 2011 05:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladymercury-10.livejournal.com
This fic may be relevant to the discussion: http://guiltysecret79.livejournal.com/8909.html

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Date: 15 Jun 2011 09:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] me-so-geeky.livejournal.com
I was reced you for fic, and saw this discussion...

The one thing that doesn't sit well with me with the whole River-as-a-Time-Lady and wee!River/space suit girl being able to use the regeneration glow, is that if River is a Time Lady, wouldn't she would have been able to regenerate in the Library? I know it's been established that Time Lords can be killed if they are over-killed/killed twice before they can regenerate, but I don't remember River's death as being bad enough to prevent that. I think, with the Time Head thing, River would have about the same ability as Jenny. More of a healing, not a regeneration. But I'm guessing less, otherwise we're back at the death in the Library issue. I hope that made sense.

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Date: 15 Jun 2011 04:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darkraku.livejournal.com
Problem about that is the upload kind of killed her entire body before she could actually do it. She may have started to, but her whole body was destroyed. We can tell as much by the burn marks left on the seat and lack of a body. After all, her body was there one minute and gone the next. It was definately big enough to prevent it. She told The Doctor that he wouldn't survive and he is a full timelord and she was obviously factoring in the ablity to regenerate. River wouldn't be able to survive either.

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Date: 21 Jun 2011 08:33 pm (UTC)
elisi: Edwin and Charles (Kiss by llorona_llorona)
From: [personal profile] elisi
She nudged the water, she's sure of it.

This post, but as fic. ♥

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Date: 26 Jun 2011 11:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stargatecrazy.livejournal.com
I love this theory...it is now head!canon for me :D

I also love the significance of Idris asking for water. People are right in saying why would she ask for water if she wasn't actually human and didn't understand her human body (or it's need for water). So maybe she was asking for River (names are funny things remember...)

I also no longer think she was telling Team TARDIS that 'The only water in the forest is the river' but rather saying what River says in AGMGTW, more evidence to show she has a strong link with River. :)

Seriously love this idea though <3

As Moffat said, there are many layers to River Song.

SGC

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Date: 1 Jul 2011 11:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darkraku.livejournal.com
or, allternatively, once again making clear the fact that the TARDIS can see all of time at once.

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Date: 2 Jul 2011 04:02 pm (UTC)
sea_thoughts: Ruby in *The Legend of Ruby Sunday* (DWRiver of Mercy - signed_aislynn)
From: [personal profile] sea_thoughts
So I've been reading Thames: Sacred River by Peter Ackroyd and there is a chapter called 'The Time of the River' and after reading it, I am almost convinced Moffat has read this book.

First noticed the similarities when reading this: Time has a curious presence upon the river... The people of the river are suspended in the river's time, which has some deep affinity with a world that existed before the concept of time itself. Perhaps we will come to describe it as timeless. It runs in an eternal present that, according to philosophers, is the one part of time that does not really exist. But if it were to be stilled, it would lose its identity.

and

There is an old and continually used expression attached to the river. It is the sense of being 'suspended in time', a notion that suggests the slight sway backwards and forwards. It is the almost imperceivable motion of expectation and remembrance, poised between two worlds. And of course there are occasions when, if you gaze at one spot long enough, so that it seems to detach itself from the flow, time stops. Is this the quality of timelessness? Or is it merely an absence, a gap, to which can be attributed no characteristic at all?

This part seemed to be a good description of the Doctor/River relationship:

It is worth considering that, when you set out upon the river, you become in some way detached from the mundane world. That world becomes more remoted, as if in passing from land to water you had crossed other boundary. The feeling is akin once more to that of being 'suspended'. It may be that you have passed into a different time, or at least a different sense of time. For some, of course, the joy of entering the river is the sensation of 'escaping' from time altogether.

This bit made me think of the Doctor:

The natural occupation of the river-wanderer, set free from the world of days and hours in order to soar among dreams. Those who dream by the river may dream of the future as well as of the past.

This bit make me think of the TARDIS:

The writers and dreamers on the river, such as Lewis Carroll, always have a curiously malleable attitude towards spaces and places. They make them infinitely small or infinitely large.

This bit made me think of the first time we met River in the Library:

Water is the melancholy element. Everything is dissolved within it. There are people who come to the banks of the river in order to experience forgetfulness. The sight of the river can obliterate thought, and kill observation. It can even erase memory. It absorbs everything. It can induce sleep and oblivion, as well as contemplation.

Apologies for the random comment but I couldn't believe it when I read the chapter and needed to share and I thought you might be interested!

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Date: 7 Aug 2011 05:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dweomeroflight.livejournal.com
I like this theory alot! I thought after AGMGTW that River was more closely linked to the TARDIS then the obvious. If Moffat writes this in along with everything else though that is ONE EXTREMELY COMPLICATED STORYLINE.

So basically. SQUEE TIME AND WHEN DOES EP 8 AIR???