I like my angst subtextual . . .

[promethia_tenk]

So, I've long maintained that "The Beast Below" is a far, far better episode than most people give it credit for.  Then yesterday I was batting around some things with elisi , whose thoughts on such matters I can't really separate from my own anymore, and the following came to me:

Ok, so, "The Beast Below:"

Eleven is going to kill the starwhale. Or, more specifically, he's going to make it a vegetable so that it can still fly around but it "won't feel it."

Eleven is the starwhale.

And then he'll have to find a new name because he won't be the Doctor anymore.



So . . . what do you do around here to stave off the, you know . . . self harm?



(Aside: has anyone else ever tried to make this point before?  I swear I would have remembered it if I'd read it somewhere else, but maybe I missed something?)

Comments

[owlboy]

Oooh. that's interesting...can't say I've seen someone point it out before.

Yeah, the angst isn't gone, just hidden. [which makes it a billion times more compelling to me]
When Kazran was ranting about dying alone in ACC, I got the strong feeling he was airing the Doctor's own fears out loud.

edit// oh yeah, and I'm of two minds about The Beast Below. It has a ton of great ideas, but it doesn't quite mesh into a coherent story for me. Reading about all the cut dialogue/scenes tho, it's not the fault of Moffat's writing.

[promethia_tenk]

Thank you!

Yeah, the angst isn't gone, just hidden. [which makes it a billion times more compelling to me]
I think I gained more compassion for the Doctor over the course of "Amy's Choice" than I did from the entirety of Ten's angsting. And, honestly, I do find late-stage Ten pretty affecting, especially in WoM and EoT--this is not just me complaining about Ten's emo.

When Kazran was ranting about dying alone in ACC, I got the strong feeling he was airing the Doctor's own fears out loud.
Yes! Rather like Amy's "what is the point of you?" in AC--you just know those aren't entirely her words.

edit// oh yeah, and I'm of two minds about The Beast Below. It has a ton of great ideas, but it doesn't quite mesh into a coherent story for me. Reading about all the cut dialogue/scenes tho, it's not the fault of Moffat's writing.
I can't even quite bring myself to talk about "plot holes" when it comes to that episode--the whole thing is so obviously meant to not really be taken literally that I can't see the point in even trying to. If you let it be what it wants to be--all emotions and atmospherics and allegory--I think it's an utter gem of an episode. YMMV, of course. I've never seen anything about the cut material from that ep--anything noteworthy?

[owlboy]

Mm- I think that episode has some of the best metaphors/allegories of the series- especially the visual ones, dear god. All that RED.

Don't know of any big ones for TBB- but episodes like VOTD imo were torn apart by bad editing. A lot of things people complain about are explained in edits, makes me sad

[promethia_tenk]

Mm- I think that episode has some of the best metaphors/allegories of the series- especially the visual ones, dear god. All that RED.
Explain! Explain!

Don't know of any big ones for TBB- but episodes like VOTD imo were torn apart by bad editing. A lot of things people complain about are explained in edits, makes me sad
Bugger. They probably do try to pack just a bit too much into those episodes. But I think on the whole I prefer things too full and a little disjointed to something spread too thin.

[owlboy]

>>Explain! Explain!

Yes Dalek Tenk (salute)

It's quite gruesome. IMO all the red is a visual metaphor for the violence/opression that the city is built on- it's built on the blood of the Starwhale and the people sacrificed to it to hide the truth.
The violence is so pervasive in this culture that people don't even /notice/ it anymore. They wear it- they're drenched in it- and they don't know. Liz 10's epic red dress- I saw it was water at first, but it's blood- all of this flows out of her own actions that she has made herself ignorant of.

Eleven twigs to the situation almost immediately [and the way this is explained - it's a police state because no one cares about the children - i ADORE] but he doesn't get how horrific it really is. That he's wading into metaphorical blood with no idea. Which is why I find this little icon incredibly affecting.

[promethia_tenk]

O_O Interesting.

I'd just read it as part of the British theme and the red/blue colors of the whole season, but I see what you're saying. I'll have to keep it in mind the next time I'm watching that ep.

[owlboy]

Could be. That scene with Liz 10 tho, with the dress, and the masks- I feel like they went to a lot of effort to pack metaphors in it. [I love that little scene a ridic amount]

[promethia_tenk]

=D Yeah, I remember when the episode came out everybody was like "that shot was really pretty but so weird--why was it even in there?" . . . gripe, gripe, gripe. I loved your stuff with the mirrors, etc.

I think my resolution for the next season is to pay more attention to the complainers (!)--usually a sign there's something deeper going on that we're all missing. Like the starwhale metaphor was waaaaay to heavy-handed *nods*

[owlboy]

>>I think my resolution for the next season is to pay more attention to the complainers (!)--usually a sign there's something deeper going on that we're all missing.

Absolutely! Some of them don't even realise how insightful they are. I twigged onto the bajillion eyes thing when someone said something like 'Moffat sure likes eyes, doesn't he?' [same dude went on to tell me I was reading too much into it...]

[promethia_tenk]

Some of them don't even realise how insightful they are.
Beautifully ironic, that.

[same dude went on to tell me I was reading too much into it...]
And that =D My favorite was still the guy on GB who posted a picture of a fistful of drinking straws and the caption 'drop em.' It was like, wow, that would be so much more clever if you weren't massively wrong . . .

[bendingwind.livejournal.com]

If you let it be what it wants to be--all emotions and atmospherics and allegory--I think it's an utter gem of an episode.

I am not the only one who loved this episode for that reason~! I felt so alone XD

[promethia_tenk]

The complainers are just so vocal. I think it's utterly gorgeous and luminous. I've run into a few other people who feel similarly.

[elisi]

elisi , whose thoughts on such matters I can't really separate from my own anymore
Heh. (This part of your brain is on its way to bed btw. But I couldn't resist a post from you...)

Anyway, this who thing ties in with the next ep, where the Doctor tries to stop the Bracewell bomb by talking about pain: 'It's hurts, that's means you're alive!' (From memory, but that's the gist of it.)

Oh Doctor.

[promethia_tenk]

Anyway, this who thing ties in with the next ep, where the Doctor tries to stop the Bracewell bomb by talking about pain: 'It's hurts, that's means you're alive!'
Ooooo . . . I like. There's probably a much more coherent theory of the first half of the season in here somewhere if we poke around long enough. All that stuff about unlearning things left over from Ten . . .

Sleep well!

[scarab-dynasty.livejournal.com]

So glad I'm not the only person seeing this kinda stuff here... <3 You read into it better than I did, though.

I too agree that episode was far better than it was given credit for. At least in part because I'm convinced to death it had obscure, vague Children of Earth references coming out te wazoo and by the starwhale's teeth I NEEDED that right then.

Edited because stupid spelling is stupid.

[promethia_tenk]

So glad I'm not the only person seeing this kinda stuff here... <3 You read into it better than I did, though.
*g* Thanks. I'm completely obsessed with Moffat's allegories. They're EVERYWHERE. It makes me massively happy when other people see it too and aren't all 'you're reading too much into it!'

At least in part because I'm convinced to death it had obscure, vague Children of Earth references coming out te wazoo and by the starwhale's teeth I NEEDED that right then.
Ooooo . . . haven't gotten to CoE yet (just finished season one), but when I do I'll have to be on the lookout. Thanks for the heads up!

[scarab-dynasty.livejournal.com]

Oh you're not. I mean Moffat's just really big on this whole linking things to other things stuff. I love the way he connects things so uniquely.

Yeah you're in for a toughie, with CoE, though you've probably been warned already. I suggest setting aside something nice and light and happy to watch between episodes O_o like... Sarah jane Adventures or something.

[promethia_tenk]

I'm such a Moffat fangirl--all the connections are like crack. And just when you think you've exhausted it all, up comes something like this. <3

Yeah you're in for a toughie, with CoE, though you've probably been warned already.
It was pretty much impossible to hang around the Doctor Who fandom and not get spoiled, but thanks for the warning.

[scarab-dynasty.livejournal.com]

This, this is how it is indeed. And it's incredible just ho many links there are.

I advise tissues and chocolate You will be needing both before the day is out...

[honeynoir.livejournal.com]

Ahhh, that makes so much sense! Haven't seen that point before, either... I definitely haven't made that connection myself. (Which now seems kind of funny, because of the whole Doctor=starwhale!!! thing.)

[promethia_tenk]

Thanks :) Honestly, I had a good half hour after I thought of it where I was just sitting there going "surely someone else has said that already? Maybe I just didn't see it? Is it just so obvious that nobody even bothered to say it? That must be it . . . I'm going to post this and everybody is going to be like--haha, what, you just thought of that?" My brain couldn't quite come to terms with the "well, duh" feeling.

It might just be that when Amy sets up the comparison, she's so very emphatic about her interpretation of it, plus seeing it the other way almost requires you to read backwards through the episode, you know? All the stuff about what the Doctor's going to do to the starwhale comes before Amy makes it into a metaphor.

[honeynoir.livejournal.com]

All the stuff about what the Doctor's going to do to the starwhale comes before Amy makes it into a metaphor.

You're right, as usual. *resists urge to read the entire season backwards* Well played, Doctor Who.

[sea_thoughts]

So . . . what do you do around here to stave off the, you know . . . self harm?

Pretty much what Ten was doing post-WoM and pre EoT, right?

Also, I realised recently that Leadworth in "Amy's Choice" is really the Doctor's nightmare more than Rory's dream. It's not just quiet and full of old people who can't die, it's where one of his companions dies and he can nothing to prevent or change than and the other one says "if you can't save people, what's the point of you?" I guess that makes the TARDIS Rory's nightmare.

[promethia_tenk]

Pretty much what Ten was doing post-WoM and pre EoT, right?
Yup. I think I see a lot of the early season as still recovering from having been Ten.

Also, I realised recently that Leadworth in "Amy's Choice" is really the Doctor's nightmare more than Rory's dream. It's not just quiet and full of old people who can't die, it's where one of his companions dies and he can nothing to prevent or change than and the other one says "if you can't save people, what's the point of you?" I guess that makes the TARDIS Rory's nightmare.
Very much agreed. Well, actually, I think I'm inclined to see them *both* as the Doctor's nightmare--a dead TARDIS sounds like the kind of thing that would haunt him too. Once we found out who the Dream Lord is, I started looking at almost all of that episode as a reflection of the Doctor.

[sea_thoughts]

That's true. A dead TARDIS would be his worst nightmare, I think... that really would mean Gallifrey has gone. I mean, he had to cope with an exploding TARDIS in the finale and that was bad enough!