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promethia_tenkMy descent into fandom bum-hood continues with, perhaps, the worst-explained post of all time. If you follow this, you get all the gold stars, but frankly, I won't blame you if you don't want to wade through my brain-dump. Input welcomed and desired, though.
My basic point, I suppose, is that there's this recurring imagery of a life-vessel (an egg, an ark, a ship) coupled with explosions that suggests creation (or preservation) and destruction all in one. Also, through the magical transitive powers of symbolism, all of these things that I'm about to point out can be read as one and the same. Through this conflation we see multiple generations emerging from the same source in a symbolic re-looping.
You should also know that I am totally operating on the assumption that Oswin (or whoever she is) is a descendant of the Doctor's. I'm hoping his granddaughter for maximum 50th anniversary full-circle, back-to-basics appropriateness (granddaughter idea copyright elisi).
Commence free-association.
Ok, so there's this thing about eggs and fire:
In which things which are eggs (or arks) get blown up or almost blown up and are sources for creation (or preservation) and destruction all in one.
Like here's an egg (from the last Christmas special):
It's also an ark for the souls of the forrest, which was being burned. It also happens to be a ship that can travel through the time vortex (remember that). And look at that interior:
Remind you of something?:
That's where Oswin was being kept.
Another egg:
Which is kind of an ark too, isn't it? The comparison to Moses set adrift on the Nile as certainly been made before, and Melody was the one prophecied to bring down the "pharaoh" if you will. And then by the principle of "all the cradles are one cradle" we have:
Where the idea of multiple generations coming out of the same source becomes explicit with the question of "whose cot is that?" And because it is blue and has gallifreyan on it, the cot is also:
Hey, what do you know? It's an ark/egg/ship that can travel through the time vortex (the recipe for a Time Lord, saved in a ship). Lest we forget, though, the TARDIS went boom for reasons we still don't understand:
Which means this entire complex of symbolism is still very much in play. Perhaps the central metaphorical focal point of the whole Moff run. It's a ship, it's an egg, it's an explosion. It's the universe being unmade and made all in one. It's River being made and unmade all in one (the big bang, on the date of her conception) and also preserved (the TARDIS, keeping her safe--ark). All sexual connotations fully implied.
What am I to make of this, then?:
The Dalek asylum being blown up--it's like the dark mirror of that event.
Again we have an ark of sorts (for the preservation of the Daleks who were too "beautiful" to live), and the snow-covered planet with its force field membrane fully looks like an egg. And there's destruction, certainly. But where's the creation? Answers to come, I suspect, but Oswin certainly bears the markings of being a source of renewal (see lonewytch's post here). And then there's this scene:
Help me.
"Help me" are magic words in Moff Who. Like "everybody lives." Really, really love that scene. The Doctor backed into a corner by all the demons he's created, desperate to get through a door he can't open himself, and he's going to rescue Oswin who has, herself, been trapped by the same manace. But before she can let him through the door she has to break that link between the Daleks and the Doctor, their memories of him and their mutually-defining relationship. And as soon as she does that she immediately finds the code for the door . . . it's almost like the whole storyline with River and the Silence last season and how that allowed the Doctor to break out of so many self-destructive patterns, but played out again with more specificity re: the Daleks (and therefore the Time War?), or like nested iterations of the same mechanism down through another layer . . .
And hasn't the Doctor, for all of New Who, basically been defined by his hatred for the Daleks? Because he's been defined by the Time War and what he had to do and the repercussions of that. And the first thing that JLC's character does is to symbolically break him from that. Which makes the question, then, who is she that she gets to do that?
Arks, eggs, explosions:
Which brings us to this week and this intriguing tableau:
The Doctor and Jex are explicitly mirrored in this episode, so we are free to conflate Jex's ship with the Doctor's. He's been taken there by "Susan" (the name of the Doctor's granddaughter--the first companion), whose other name is "Joshua" which we are told explicitly in the show means "deliverer."
The egg ship has some good suggestion of iterative generations too. Jex came out of it, since it is his ship. Symbolically it can be seen as a source for the Gunslinger too, since that is where the Doctor discovers the knowledge of how he was created. The Doctor climbs into the egg himself, thus reinforcing the mirroring of himself and Jex. I wonder if there aren't some nice echoes of the scene at the end of A Good Man Goes to War in there. The gunslinger can also be seen as a metaphor for River (the living weapon created, albeit indirectly, by the Doctor). The Doctor learns of Jex's crimes here, as he learned of his own crimes in the earlier episode, in/beside this symbol of fertility and regeneration.
But, oh . . .
I guess my question for all of you playing along at home is, if the exploding TARDIS is a perfectly balanced symbol of creation and destruction, what am I to make of the apparent tilt towards destruction this season? The Asylum being blown up? The loss of Oswin? The exploding egg ship? The souffles?!?!!?
And that's all I got. Apologies for the mess.
My basic point, I suppose, is that there's this recurring imagery of a life-vessel (an egg, an ark, a ship) coupled with explosions that suggests creation (or preservation) and destruction all in one. Also, through the magical transitive powers of symbolism, all of these things that I'm about to point out can be read as one and the same. Through this conflation we see multiple generations emerging from the same source in a symbolic re-looping.
You should also know that I am totally operating on the assumption that Oswin (or whoever she is) is a descendant of the Doctor's. I'm hoping his granddaughter for maximum 50th anniversary full-circle, back-to-basics appropriateness (granddaughter idea copyright elisi).
Commence free-association.
Ok, so there's this thing about eggs and fire:
In which things which are eggs (or arks) get blown up or almost blown up and are sources for creation (or preservation) and destruction all in one.
Like here's an egg (from the last Christmas special):
It's also an ark for the souls of the forrest, which was being burned. It also happens to be a ship that can travel through the time vortex (remember that). And look at that interior:
Remind you of something?:
That's where Oswin was being kept.
Another egg:
Which is kind of an ark too, isn't it? The comparison to Moses set adrift on the Nile as certainly been made before, and Melody was the one prophecied to bring down the "pharaoh" if you will. And then by the principle of "all the cradles are one cradle" we have:
Where the idea of multiple generations coming out of the same source becomes explicit with the question of "whose cot is that?" And because it is blue and has gallifreyan on it, the cot is also:
Hey, what do you know? It's an ark/egg/ship that can travel through the time vortex (the recipe for a Time Lord, saved in a ship). Lest we forget, though, the TARDIS went boom for reasons we still don't understand:
Which means this entire complex of symbolism is still very much in play. Perhaps the central metaphorical focal point of the whole Moff run. It's a ship, it's an egg, it's an explosion. It's the universe being unmade and made all in one. It's River being made and unmade all in one (the big bang, on the date of her conception) and also preserved (the TARDIS, keeping her safe--ark). All sexual connotations fully implied.
What am I to make of this, then?:
The Dalek asylum being blown up--it's like the dark mirror of that event.
Again we have an ark of sorts (for the preservation of the Daleks who were too "beautiful" to live), and the snow-covered planet with its force field membrane fully looks like an egg. And there's destruction, certainly. But where's the creation? Answers to come, I suspect, but Oswin certainly bears the markings of being a source of renewal (see lonewytch's post here). And then there's this scene:
Help me.
"Help me" are magic words in Moff Who. Like "everybody lives." Really, really love that scene. The Doctor backed into a corner by all the demons he's created, desperate to get through a door he can't open himself, and he's going to rescue Oswin who has, herself, been trapped by the same manace. But before she can let him through the door she has to break that link between the Daleks and the Doctor, their memories of him and their mutually-defining relationship. And as soon as she does that she immediately finds the code for the door . . . it's almost like the whole storyline with River and the Silence last season and how that allowed the Doctor to break out of so many self-destructive patterns, but played out again with more specificity re: the Daleks (and therefore the Time War?), or like nested iterations of the same mechanism down through another layer . . .
And hasn't the Doctor, for all of New Who, basically been defined by his hatred for the Daleks? Because he's been defined by the Time War and what he had to do and the repercussions of that. And the first thing that JLC's character does is to symbolically break him from that. Which makes the question, then, who is she that she gets to do that?
Arks, eggs, explosions:
Which brings us to this week and this intriguing tableau:
The Doctor and Jex are explicitly mirrored in this episode, so we are free to conflate Jex's ship with the Doctor's. He's been taken there by "Susan" (the name of the Doctor's granddaughter--the first companion), whose other name is "Joshua" which we are told explicitly in the show means "deliverer."
The egg ship has some good suggestion of iterative generations too. Jex came out of it, since it is his ship. Symbolically it can be seen as a source for the Gunslinger too, since that is where the Doctor discovers the knowledge of how he was created. The Doctor climbs into the egg himself, thus reinforcing the mirroring of himself and Jex. I wonder if there aren't some nice echoes of the scene at the end of A Good Man Goes to War in there. The gunslinger can also be seen as a metaphor for River (the living weapon created, albeit indirectly, by the Doctor). The Doctor learns of Jex's crimes here, as he learned of his own crimes in the earlier episode, in/beside this symbol of fertility and regeneration.
But, oh . . .
I guess my question for all of you playing along at home is, if the exploding TARDIS is a perfectly balanced symbol of creation and destruction, what am I to make of the apparent tilt towards destruction this season? The Asylum being blown up? The loss of Oswin? The exploding egg ship? The souffles?!?!!?
And that's all I got. Apologies for the mess.
(no subject)
Date: 18 Sep 2012 02:05 am (UTC)It is the 50th anniversary coming up. Is that a hint? Would they bring his granddaughter back? Could she have survived the Time War on Earth? My Classic Who knowledge is fandom osmosis- and Wikipedia-based, with the exception of a couple of Tom Baker serials that I did actually sit down and watch.
Then again, they have reused names before, like every time ever. You'd think that Williams and Jones and Smith were the only surnames in the Whoniverse.
Now I really want Oswin to be Susan.
*flails helplessly*
ETA:
I'm glad you're back, even if you're only back a little! Where have you disappeared to? And have you been happier with the show of late? I am really happy with this season and think I might be getting over what happened last year, and if they're going to have the finale everyone keeps shouting spoilers about, I think it might just pull together.
(no subject)
Date: 18 Sep 2012 03:10 am (UTC)I'm glad you're back, even if you're only back a little! Where have you disappeared to?
Oh, thank you! Serious employment, mostly, and fandom burnout. But I don't want to disappear altogether!
And have you been happier with the show of late? I am really happy with this season and think I might be getting over what happened last year
I see we feel alike : ) It was quite magical, as soon as the show came back. Granted, I'm still expecting to see more things ~Addressed, but I feel a reasonable expectation that they will be. Very excited about this season, all in all. There is still nothing like this show.
if they're going to have the finale everyone keeps shouting spoilers about, I think it might just pull together.
I am debating whether I know what you're referring to, but you intrigue me!
(no subject)
Date: 18 Sep 2012 04:40 am (UTC)It was indeed quite magical. I was very worried about "Asylum of the Daleks," because of all the to-do about the potentially fake divorce, and I was afraid it was going to be stupid or just Moffat taunting us or worse, that they would actually break my OTP, and then EVERYTHING WAS AMAZING, if slightly rushed. But honestly, I would probably have had a heart attack and died before I got to see the end of the episode if they had crammed anything else in there.
Except now I am filled with sadness over Amy and Rory leaving. What can you do?
Um, let me be extremely vague and if you've heard the spec, you'll know what I'm talking about. If you haven't been reading any spoilers and don't even want to dance around it, now would be a good time to look away. Here are several blank lines, below which are POTENTIAL SPOILERS:
There is a popular theory circulating connecting the dots among the common elements among "The Angels Take Manhattan" and several prior episodes, some as far back as Moffat's time on RTD-era Who, and tying up some dangling plot threads from all of them at once. Do you know what I'm talking about?
END SPOILERS HERE.
(no subject)
Date: 18 Sep 2012 02:09 am (UTC)I know...dumb conclusion. I'll go hide now.
*Whimpers*
(no subject)
Date: 18 Sep 2012 02:59 am (UTC)There are other things to consider as well: whatever that was that invaded the Doctor's dreams in the prequel, that seems to be pulling the Doctor's strings, it wrote Gallifreyan. You might argue that we just saw Gallifreyan because we were in the Doc's head, but if it's the same thing that was able to control the TARDIS, to blow it up, then I don't think writing Gallifreyan as well is really out there.
(no subject)
Date: 22 Sep 2012 01:15 pm (UTC)I damn well hope so.
(no subject)
Date: 18 Sep 2012 06:05 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 18 Sep 2012 01:05 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 18 Sep 2012 10:23 pm (UTC)"Everything has its time and everything dies." Or to put it another way: "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up..."
We've had the time of creation: the Eleventh Doctor's identity was created by Amelia in Series 5, the Ponds' marriage was created, the new universe was created and the Doctor was REcreated from Amelia's memories; River Song as we know her was created in Series 6 and Team TARDIS started the revolution to overthrow the Silence; the Doctor's old reputation was killed off and he created a new one - i.e. the madman with a box, not the Oncoming Storm, which was cemented in the first episode of Series 7 with the Daleks' memory being wiped.
Now we are over the crest of the hill and going down the other side, down into the dark, into death and destruction (no, I don't think it's a coincidence that Moffat wanted this series to start in autumn as the days grow shorter, the nights grow colder and the dark grows stronger). We know that we are seeing the last of the Ponds: their story is ending (it's even possible that the Doctor is moving backwards through their timeline in order to avoid saying goodbye). The end of the Ponds brings all of the things that the Doctor hates: saying goodbye, leaving people behind, being alone again. Let's not forget that the Ponds can't have any more biological children and Amy can't settle down because she's always listening out for the TARDIS sound. As long as she's listening, as long as she's still WAITING, there will be no more creating.
(no subject)
Date: 19 Sep 2012 05:39 pm (UTC)I love the idea that the story reflects the cycle of life/nature, and that this is reflected in the last couple of series I'm also reminded of the concept of the triple goddess that embodies this trio of birth/life/death or growth/fruiting/decay. The situation with the Pond's now is one of - effectively - stasis "I can't not wait for you, even now." Stasis is not normal or healthy, in the cycle of life everything has to change, like you say no one can move on to the germination/growth stage again until they stop holding on. My worry is that this will be forced on both the Ponds and 11, and not be of their free will. That they cannot choose to leave, and he cannot let them go, so it's down to the Universe to set the cycle going again by somehow tearing them apart. I don't like that idea. I hope they leave of their own volition.
(no subject)
Date: 20 Sep 2012 05:12 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 22 Sep 2012 01:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 19 Sep 2012 01:10 am (UTC)(I have nothing intelligent to offer. Just: fascination. <3)
(no subject)
Date: 19 Sep 2012 05:26 pm (UTC)I have to give serious Kudos to sea_thought's comment above which raises a really interesting idea, that we are completing a cycle with the Ponds which reflects the natural cycle of conception, birth, growth, flowering/fruiting, dissolution, death.
Thinking about it like that,It all began with 11's recreation of himself into a new Doctor, rediscovering who he wanted to be after the angst of 10, seeing again the pure magic of the Universe through the fairytale of series 5. Then in series 6 we have the creation of Melody Pond and the Doctor discovering that he has a family now Amy-Rory-River, plus a woman who loves him and who he has married. Plus the dismantling of his myth - which was both a process of creation and destruction, because it allows him to be renewed again and frees him.
Now with series 7 a we are in the dissolution and death bit. He has given away his name, his myth. I think he has to go through a process of loss and untangling things about him that are connected to his myth. (And i really think he is losing himself without a companion mirror to reflect the Universe back to him.) The relationship with the Ponds has become unhealthy i think for both sides. So the symbol of life egg/ark becomes a symbol of destruction, or breaking down. It will culminate with the Pond's going and then Christmas will be the time of germination for him to grow again in a new way.
It's an interesting way of looking at it.
I had an interesting idea about Oswin, that is a bit of a nuts theory and not at all in keeping with the idea of her being a family member. If, as Caro Skinner seems to suggest, she is a different person entirely when we meet her in the Xmas special, then what if she is a different person entirely in every episode. As in, she doesn't travel directly with the Doctor, he just keeps meeting her over and over in each ep. She's different but she's the same. She's iterations of the same woman displaced all over time, for some reason (probably to lure the Doctor to some sort of trap). Fits with the idea that symbols grow out of a central idea/truth. What if he loses her somehow at the end of every episode. It's an interesting idea, but i don't think it will be done.
You point about who is Oswin that she gets to erase the last elements of the Time War from his life is a good one.
I have thoughts on River too. Thoughts that are very not good. Thoughts about Moff rewriting her timeline. I don't believe Moff would leave Amy childless, i think there's going to be some kind of fix. The fact that Angels are in Manhattan makes me wonder about people getting chucked back in time, tracking down their kidnapped daughter and raising her, thus rewriting her entire timeline.
Um. This was supposed to be an intelligent and lucid response, with lots of thinky thoughts around yours, but instead turned into a lot of speculation.
(no subject)
Date: 19 Sep 2012 05:59 pm (UTC)Inside the egg spaceship in Mercy, the security system on the ship is called Abraxas. Credit to janie_aire for pointing this out on gallifreybase and patches365 for pointing it out in a comment to my meta. The Khaler also reference their Gods a lot. This is important because the Abraxas security system is what seals the central myster of the gunslinger: that is the mystery that the Monster within is self-created and part of us.
Now then. Linking in very very much with your egg ideas, and the idea that all symbols stem from one, and the idea of birth and death rolled into one, the presence of this name is fascinating. Abraxas is a name with gnostic meaning, and the aforementioned people pointed out these quotes from Demian by Herman Hesse - which i haven't read but which apparently makes use of the concept of Abraxas.
"The bird fights its way out of the egg. The egg is the world. Who would be born must destroy a world. The bird flies to God. That God's name is Abraxas."
.. it appears that Abraxas has much deeper significance. We may conceive of the name as that of the godhead whose symbolic task is the uniting of godly and devilish elements.
The wiki page on Abraxas is also very interesting.
He designates Abraxas more distinctly as "the power above all, and First Principle," "the cause and first archetype" of all things
Also, Carl Jung says:
That which is spoken by God-the-Sun is life; that which is spoken by the Devil is death; Abraxas speaketh that hallowed and accursed word, which is life and death at the same time. Abraxas begetteth truth and lying, good and evil, light and darkness in the same word and in the same act. Wherefore is Abraxas terrible.
(no subject)
Date: 23 Sep 2012 09:27 pm (UTC)Which makes the question, then, who is she that she gets to do that?
I want to know, Moffat, please. Am taking the granddaughter theory and running with it, too, because perfect.
what am I to make of the apparent tilt towards destruction this season?
I am sort of worried about the characters’ covering their ears (and mouths) – and the promos for the Angel episode certainly didn’t help. Idk, maybe that part is a double bluff.
(no subject)
Date: 24 Sep 2012 09:17 pm (UTC)I think maybe this keys into one of the other Moff recurring themes, of paternity and maternity (which would also work if Oswin's another granddaughter) - the infertility, the souffle (eggs AND milk), 'are you a mother?' and then 'what about you, are you a father?' - the answer to which, taking into account the mirroring, presented the Doctor as a sort of father-figure. Which again could key into the 50th anniversary and a return to the start, since One was such a paternal/crotchety granddad figure. Idk. Obviously there's also the Doctor being sort of the Ponds' kid (there was a deleted line from 'Power of Three' about getting a babysitter for him!) so... IDK THOUGHTS.