promethia_tenk | Attention, Internets:

I am now wondering what exclusions may apply ...

This was totally your intention, right? Eat away at my brain til I cracked?

Lol, sorry for that, no. Was just protecting myself against the people who will inevitably come along and puncture my victory with "well what about _____? You haven't watched that, have you?!?!" I *think* I've watched everything of his that's aired on tv. I know there's some unaired pilots around that some people have seen, maybe some webisode kinds of things? And I haven't watched the Buffy movie. But I've watched all of his major projects.

How did you like Firefly? It is a show very dear to my heart.

Firefly? I'd say liked-not-loved. I enjoyed watching it, but it never really grabbed onto me in any deeper way. I'd say my favorite thing about it was the general world-building and atmosphere, which I found very rich. But then, I did at least like most of the characters on it, which is a bit of An Achievement where Whedon is concerned, and I had actual shippy feelings about doctor boy and Kylie (Kaylie? Something with a K. It's been awhile.), which . . . Whedon is pretty singular in the lack of shippy feelings it inspires in me in general (and when it comes to investment in shows, I am absolutely a shipper, usually), so that was a nice surprise.

I think I would have liked to see how it developed, because basically I've liked each subsequent thing Whedon has done more than the previous (Dollhouse > Dr. Horrible > Firefly > Angel > Buffy). So I could see Firefly growing into something that I was more passionate about, given a chance. But as it is they really didn't have any time to come up with something that I would love.

What is it about Firefly, for you?

Oh, Simon and Kaylee! They are adorable, yes. :D

I don't know...I like all of it, I guess. The world-building, the clever dialogue and the humor, the characters, the themes. The characters most of all, probably.

There was something about Firefly that felt very . . . balanced? It had a nice fullness to it, although that also makes me feel like I don't need to engage with it further. And the mix of characters was good fun (And also, I think, considerably less composed of stereotypes than is typical for Whedon? I feel like he tends to start from very broad stereotypes--the perky blonde cheerleader, the awkward nerd boy, the corporate ice queen, etc,, etc.--and then develop them into three-dimensional characters from there. Firefly seems to do a better job of starting from somewhere more wholly original.)

I haven't watched much Whedon apart from Firefly and Dr. Horrible, so I'm not familiar with his characterization tendencies. The characters on Firefly felt very real to me in a way TV characters often don't.

I think I might see what you mean about the show seeming balanced--it always felt very complete to me, even with the plot threads that it left hanging. It would have been awesome to get more seasons, but I feel like it was very...tidy? Or unspoiled, somehow. Like, a lot of shows get messy or lose track of themselves if they go on too long, and I guess Firefly ended in a place that felt okay. The movie was a little upsetting the first time, though.

The characters on Firefly felt very real to me in a way TV characters often don't.
It's funny how these things work because Whedon's characters, like RTD's characters, always feel a little cartoon-y to me (thought I like Whedon's better than Rusty's, on the whole). But you've certainly got a lot of company in your perception of them.

Like, a lot of shows get messy or lose track of themselves if they go on too long, and I guess Firefly ended in a place that felt okay.
That's a good point. What we have works--in that way that British tv shows tend to have that have planned for a limited run. Admittedly, some shows have to "loose" themselves before they ever become good and maybe Firefly would have developed into something really amazing from there . . . but what we have does work by itself.

*hands you your merit badge*

Yaaaaaaaaaay welcome to the club! Which was your favorite? Should I give Dr. Horrible another chance because I was really horrifically bored with it the last time I tried to watch it.

*admires* I shall treasure it always.

My favorite was Dollhouse, hands down. Which I gather puts me in a rather tiny minority . . .

Dr. Horrible? Hmmm, I had a great time with Dr. Horrible right off the bat and I think most of its charms are pretty much right out on the surface, so I'm not sure it would improve much on second viewing if you didn't like it the first time. OTOH, it is only 45 minutes long, so you wouldn't loose much by trying it again anyway.

I do have a thing for musicals, though.

I'm... I like musicals sometimes? IDK I'm really picky about it, and I did find it funny, but just... not quite enough?

I'm torn between Dollhouse and Firefly as my favorites. On the one hand, the world of Firefly is just so much richer and more fascinating, but on the other the premise of Dollhouse is way more interesting and meta-invoking. SO MANY FEELS, you know?

Plus, I mean, Eliza Dushku.

Did you watch Dr. Horrible when it was coming out, or later? Because I know that lent it a certain sparkle, for me. I wasn't a Whedon follower, and I actually came to it out of an interest in the intersection between the internet and tv and culture and participatory media (I've taken classes), and I'd been into watching podcasts for awhile, so a lot of my excitement was just in seeing what a group of professionals would do with the same tools and set-up. And I think if you go into it thinking of it as a very well-done podcast it makes a lot more sense and is a lot more impressive. I'm not sure I would have liked it as much if I'd first seen it, say, on DVD, and I could see it seeming disappointing in the wake of all the flailing about it? It's a quirky little thing, though. If it's not for you then it's not for you *shrug*

I see what you mean about Dollhouse and Firefly. I think for me the sheer IDEAS EXPLOSION of Dollhouse overwhelms pretty much any other consideration (also: ADELLE DEWITT), but Firefly is a really cool verse to spend some time in. I want to know where alllllllll the Dollhouse meta is, though. Because. Seriously.

Plus, I mean, Eliza Dushku.
I go hot and cold on her. Some things she's just great at, and she's a nice combination of pretty/interesting to look at. And then sometimes I think she acts like a board.

Yeah, I think so re: Dr. Horrible. I'm not a podcast fan in general so maybe that explains it?

Adelle Dewitt! *fangirls* OMG YES.

Re: Eliza Dushku, I was mostly just happy with all the pretty... she has her moments, but you're right, her acting is frequently not great.

Yeah, I think so re: Dr. Horrible. I'm not a podcast fan in general so maybe that explains it?
Makes sense to me. The whole feel of podcasts, the things they do, and very often the sense of humor are just different from tv.

Adelle Dewitt! *fangirls* OMG YES.
I was absolutely shocked that Joss Whedon managed to write that character, and particularly her relationship with Topher. I kinda want proof of his direct involvement because, frankly, I suspect the intervention of a rogue staff writer. (I have a few low opinions of Whedon's character writing.) But then, I think Whedon really pushed outside his comfort zones on a number of fronts when writing Dollhouse, so maybe I should give him a little more respect.

Re: Eliza Dushku, I was mostly just happy with all the pretty... she has her moments, but you're right, her acting is frequently not great.
I saw a great comment that she was the perfect actress to play the fully-developed Echo because Echo had such a monolithic, bland personality anyway. Which sounds snarkier than I or (I think) the original commenter intended it--there is just something . . . creepily uniform about late-stage Echo that works perfectly.

Edited 2012-01-29 13:52 (UTC)

I was absolutely shocked that Joss Whedon managed to write that character, and particularly her relationship with Topher. I kinda want proof of his direct involvement because, frankly, I suspect the intervention of a rogue staff writer. (I have a few low opinions of Whedon's character writing.) But then, I think Whedon really pushed outside his comfort zones on a number of fronts when writing Dollhouse, so maybe I should give him a little more respect.

From what I hear about Joss, he's much easier to appreciate as a ground-breaking writer if you're watching his shows while they air. Buffy really broke ground with what could/could not be discussed on television, and despite some troubling themes, was apparently pretty revolutionary. Firefly (apparently, again, I'm not really a big television guru) sort of broke ground in showing that a television could build a massive, cohesive universe without completely breaking the budget. Those things seem really commonplace now, because, well, they became so after he showed that they could be done. Dollhouse is the only show I actually watched while it was airing, so I think it's easier to appreciate just how massive a leap he was taking with some of the themes and statements of that show, and how inherently different it is from a lot of other television.

I have some definite problems with things he's written, but I enjoy his shows and I have a lot of respect for him as someone who paved the way for other writers to write even better shows.

I would like my merit badge now, please.
I got you two - one for the achievement, and one to apologise? ;)

Lol--darn tootin'!

And, ok, that first one is a bit of a lie, but thank you anyway ; )

BAD HORSE
BAD HORSE
BAD HORSE
IS BAD~

I loved that he was AN ACTUAL HORSE. Apparently I am easily amused.

Yay* *hands you a merit badge*

I saw further up that you said Dollhouse was your fave. I find it hard to choose with Joss, becasue there's just sooo much to choose from, but Dollhouse does have a special place in my heart. Not in a warm cuddly sort of way, but almost because it is so shocking. The twists and the turns and the fact that, how can you love these characters who are either someone else every week ,or else are implicitly involved in a really horrific business. Yet i did love then and root for them. And Adele. Oh, Adele. Amazing character.

You've seen the Epitaphs, right? The 2 eps that are set in the future?

I also adore Firefly. For me it's the sheer scale and richness of the world he created with it - such a wonderful idea to draw on American history that way. I found the central conceit just fascinating. And it was just so well realised, the detail was beautiful. I loved the chemistry between all the different characters, I found each of them really interesting and i thought they all had so much potential to develop in an amazing way had they been given more time. I got a little shippy for Mal/Inara to be honest, though Kaylie is probs my fave character. Because...awwww, such a sweetie.

And of course the biggest tragedy is the cancellation of the show. I fully believe that had Joss been able to continue with Firefly it would have become the best thing he's ever done, because...gods,...the potential that was there was immense. The ideas. And the story that ultimately unfolds in Serenity...assuming you have watched Serenity too?

Thank you!

I find it hard to choose with Joss, becasue there's just sooo much to choose from, but Dollhouse does have a special place in my heart.
I wish I had more difficulty choosing because it's obvious that so many people get so much out of his earlier projects, but sadly Dollhouse is the only thing of his that I really love. (Well, I had a few squeeful weeks over Dr. Horrible, but it's such a wee little thing.) Buffy I basically just did not like. AtS I really enjoyed for about the last season and a half, but before that it was mostly just a late-nineties scifi/fantasy-type show of decent quality that managed to mash fewer of my buttons that Buffy did. Firefly is nice for what it is, but didn't get a chance to go anywhere.

Not in a warm cuddly sort of way, but almost because it is so shocking. The twists and the turns and the fact that, how can you love these characters who are either someone else every week ,or else are implicitly involved in a really horrific business. Yet i did love then and root for them.
*nods* I love the scifi horror of Dollhouse and the host of philosophical questions it brings up. I think most of the time it works better as meta than as entertainment, but oh, what meta! I just feel like Dollhouse started from such a more ambitious premise than anything else he's done. And despite all the network meddling and time constraints, I think they did a really incredible job of teasing out so many of the possibilities of that premise. Or maybe I just like science fiction premises more than the looser fantasy premises he's worked with before ('What if we had technology to let you write a new personality onto a person?' versus 'Blonde cheerleader in an alleyway turns around and dusts her attackers, oh and high school is hell . . .').

And the characters! Yes! I find connecting with Whedon's characters a bit of a trial in general? So the early stages of Dollhouse were pretty much par for the course for me, though I gather the difficulty of finding characters to relate to drove a lot of people off. But then, as you say, it's amazing how much you do end up rooting for these people, and I loved the little shocks you occasionally got while watching when you suddenly remembered what you'd been lulled into accepting as 'normal.'

And Adele. Oh, Adele. Amazing character.
<3

You've seen the Epitaphs, right? The 2 eps that are set in the future?
Yup! I think they absolutely make the show.

I also adore Firefly. For me it's the sheer scale and richness of the world he created with it - such a wonderful idea to draw on American history that way.
The world-building was fantastic. I would not at all have minded getting more time to play in that verse.

I loved the chemistry between all the different characters, I found each of them really interesting and i thought they all had so much potential to develop in an amazing way had they been given more time.
I was impressed with Firefly with how very distinct, memorable, and slightly surprising each of the different characters was. As I said to someone above, I think Whedon often writes in stereotypes, and he managed to escape that on Firefly. Despite how long ago I saw that show, I still retain very crisp memories of each of those characters, which . . . props where props are due.

And of course the biggest tragedy is the cancellation of the show. I fully believe that had Joss been able to continue with Firefly it would have become the best thing he's ever done, because...gods,...the potential that was there was immense.
Would you mind elaborating a bit? Because I confess I'm a bit bemused over the internet's rabid enthusiasm over Firefly and often wonder what I'm missing. Not that I feel like Firefly couldn't have developed into something amazing, but I wonder where all the certainty comes from. I do feel I need to watch it again sometime because it's been quite awhile and I do have a better understanding of Whedon now.

And the story that ultimately unfolds in Serenity...assuming you have watched Serenity too?
I have, but unfortunately I don't remember it well at all.

I love the scifi horror of Dollhouse and the host of philosophical questions it brings up. I think most of the time it works better as meta than as entertainment, but oh, what meta! I just feel like Dollhouse started from such a more ambitious premise than anything else he's done.

Yes, i feel like Joss really pushed his boundaries with Dollhouse, there's been darkness in his work before, but Dollhouse was just something else. Where so much of his other stuff was good/evil, i love the complexity of Dollhouse because the true puppeteers are so...invisible. All the power and control issues, and especially all the stuff about the nature of identity and what the soul is, what happens when you empty a person out, what is left behind,...wow. And the Attic...there's pages and pages of meta that needs to be written on that, i'm sure I've only watched it once and didn't have a meta head on at the time, but maybe i have to go back and rewatch and do some meta, lol!

Would you mind elaborating a bit? Because I confess I'm a bit bemused over the internet's rabid enthusiasm over Firefly and often wonder what I'm missing. Not that I feel like Firefly couldn't have developed into something amazing, but I wonder where all the certainty comes from. I do feel I need to watch it again sometime because it's been quite awhile and I do have a better understanding of Whedon now.

Sure :)
For starters, Firefly was of a much broader scope than anything Joss had done before. Like we've said, the worldbuilding was wonderful and i think that the quality of it in the eps that was made show that Joss is actually very adept at writing something that operates on a much broader scale than Buffy and Angel. The possibilities for it were endless. They had a solar system - and beyond if they wished - at their disposal. Any sort of planet, and sort of spaceship. So for one, the potential for scope there and the way it was dealt with so well.

I think there was also scope there to explore more closely how the Alliance came about and to get more into that cultural meshing of China/America. It's a sound idea, with a whole back-history that we see some of, but there could have been a lot of mileage in that - again i thought it was well handled.

The characters - i do think that they are the most complex characters that Joss has written. While i am a fan of his other work, i can understand why some people feel that he writes in stereotypes. Firefly's team are much less clearcut - the potential for character development and character arcs was there. Again, i thought it was just beautifully handled in the series that was made - yet we were only really establishing the different members of the team in series 1, such fascinating characters and i feel that chance to grow them and their arcs would have mad for a fabulous series.

The team energy that there was with the crew of Serenity - sure Buffy and Angel's teams have that cohesiveness and warmth, but like we've said we both find more richness to Firefly'sd characters so it adds a little extra frisson. Plus they all come from such different backgrounds. And we never get their backstories properly.

Mostly, when i look at series one of Firefly compared to series one of everything else he's done, it stands out for me as the most interesting, complete, well put together, richest in ideas (though Dollhouse pips it at the post on ideas)and ...just...i am in love with the idea. I think there is a lot of pining in Firely fandom after the thing that never was, and maybe it wouldn't have been the best thing he's ever done. But for me it's the best idea he's and the tragedy of it is that it was a sad waste of a wonderful idea. Very sad. Maybe that's why fand mourn it so much and in our heads it becomes this vision of sci-fi aweomeness!!!

WAY TO GO!

Attention, Internets:

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject