promethia_tenk | The Doctor's Wife

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The Doctor's Wife

I really, really didn't like the big reveal in the last episode at first, but I'm gradually coming around by realizing it's a lot more complex and interesting than it seems on the surface. Then I realized this:

I think it very possible that the TARDIS made River so that the Doctor wouldn't be alone. Or, at the very least, that she stacked the deck [ETA: much discussion of the creepiness of this in the comments, with meta-y implications]:

From "The Doctor's Wife" we learn:

1) The TARDIS exists in all of time and space and can see futures.
2) She stole him.
3) She always takes him where he needs to go (like, say, Amy's house).
4) She can't talk with him all the time, but she loves him.
5) She seemed very preoccupied with River right before she died--asking for water and repeating the line about the forrest.

In 6x07 we learn exposure to the time vortex during conception causes pseudo Time Lord-y-ness! Somehow the idea that the TARDIS rigged things makes me more willing to accept the timehead explanation, which I found pretty lame at first . . .

And then there's the stuff that's more just suggestive:

1) That very ambiguous episode title: "The Doctor's Wife."

2) The echoed "hello" greetings with both the TARDIS and River.

3) All the TARDISes were dead, but together they built a new TARDIS--"It's not impossible as long as we're alive." All the Time Lords were dead, so she built him a new Time Lord?

4) Of course the TARDIS routes calls to her and keeps her from exploding.

5) "She's the TARDIS, and she's a woman!" "Did you wish really hard?"

6) It's all rather Adam's rib, which I find a bit :-\ But then on the other hand, that is rather delightfully meta since, as a character of course, River was written for the Doctor, so I think I prefer that the text acknowledge that? Also River has an apple on the shelf in her cell in Stormcage. Or she did last season--it seems to be missing now, which the obsessive part of my brain really wants to mean something.

Now I'm just trying to decide if this was a wholly unselfish move on the TARDIS's part, or if she wants timebabies who could pilot her after he's dead . . .

ETA: Been stuck on this vid of late, and since it's gorgeous and oh so relevant (Doctor/TARDIS), might as well do a pimp: Suzanne, by

such_heights .

Also been having to remind myself that, as incongruous as the "River is Amy and Rory's daughter" reveal seemed, the way Moff's written it, it's actually all tied up in all the themes and ideas I was thinking about, oooh, last July, and had since gotten bored of and moved on from. *smacks head to dislodge thoughts*

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That's kind of lovely and at the same time, really disturbing. Which would be very Moffat....

*points up* That's my response. It disturbs me a bit. So River was made, like a present for the Doctor? This triggers the same warning bells as when I discuss grooming.

That's not to say that this theory is wrong in fact or wrong to embrace. It's just not all fluffy and happy to me. It has dark corners and I usually like to have dark corners. After all, one could say by this same thread of reasoning that the TARDIS has fashioned what the Doctor has become too.

People are probably like Sims to the TARDIS.

Creepy. And awesome.

HAHAHAHA that is hilarious. And so wrong. I can just imagine her lovingly laying out clothes, and scooting them towards the ones she wants them to be with, and sitting there all bored when they're sleeping. For some reason I imagine Idris!TARDIS doing all this....

installing the nudity patch for "Wohoo" ...

*laughing, laughing*

She does call them things like "the orange-y girl" and "the pretty one" and, collectively, "strays." Which kind of suggests the level of individual attachment she has to them!

Your icon is gorgeous. It's so simple and classy, and I think it captures the heart of their relationship really well.

Hahaha, her names also sound like the kind of names you make up for video game characters. "Oh, look out, the pretty one is dangerous!" "She has a gun! I never should have trusted you,orange-y girl!"

Oh, thank you! I really love it as well and had been wanting an icon of them for awhile when I stumbled over it. Very sharable, if you want :)

*snerk* That does sound just like playing video games!

Thanks! I have already reached my icon limit, though. :/

It's a bit creepy.

I like a bit creepy *looks innocent*

It's also completely fairytale--in the original, creepy sense of that term--and as River herself puts it: "Aren't we all?"

Also somehow it seems more ok in my head because I figure the TARDIS can kind of see how things work out? She exists in all of space and time, after all. She's sorta working on a different plane here.

I like creepy also. As long as the people telling the story acknowledge that they're aiming for creepy, not presenting me with creepy and trying to tell me it's sweet. If it's creepy, own the creepy. It's kind of like, I don't mind the fact the show keeps killing off Rory, though I'd be a little bit more comfortable with it if the people on the show made reference to it once (kind of like I had them do in my recent story, Playful Looks). However, I've never been a big fan of people ignoring the elephant in the room. That is unless someone at some point states, "So we're all ignoring the elephant in the room? Okay, cool. As long as we're all agreed." Which is weird because in my fanfic and in my original work, I tend to write stories about hidden plotlines. It's usually about characters or romances or life choices that the world isn't aware of but are the entire reason for the visible faces we present and and lives we lead. Maybe because within those hidden plotlines is when we are most honest and that's what calls me to it. *Shrug* Anyway! I agree, when looked at in the original, creepy sense of "fairytale" I really like it. Also, it fits in the classic sense of myth too. When I saw The Doctor's Wife, I felt that Idris felt very much in line with classic, Greek goddesses. This elemental being that is too big for the body it inhabits for a moment, loving the silly little mortals around it while not quite understanding them. This massive power behind only a loose consciousness. From that point of view, I imagine her doing this and then going, "You'll be happy. She was happy. What is the problem?" Then the Doctor says something about the nature of choice and she giggles herself sick.

I'll admit that I'm hinging a lot on faith right now. But my precedent is definitely Amy's story last year. I spent big chunks of last season deeply uncomfortable about Amy's storyline--convinced that she really did not want to be with Rory and worried that the show was going to push her into an ill-advised marriage and try to sell it as a happy thing. And the worst of all that was that I really couldn't tell whether I was meant to be uncomfortable or if the show was oblivious to all these problems. But, I'll hand it to Moff, it turned out so much better than I was expecting. Now he's playing an even more delicate and dangerous game this season, not just with River's backstory but also with Amy and Rory and their baby and how that'll go. But . . . I'm willing to wait and see and assume that I'm meant to be feeling uncomfortable right now. (Also with the Silence--I have a sneaking suspicion the Doctor's actions in DotM are going to turn out to be ill-advised as well.)

It's usually about characters or romances or life choices that the world isn't aware of but are the entire reason for the visible faces we present and and lives we lead. Maybe because within those hidden plotlines is when we are most honest and that's what calls me to it.
I'm a fan of this kind of storytelling as well. And, indeed, I think it's a big aspect of what I find so appealing in River's character. It's throwing me quite a lot that the specifics of that hidden plotline are so different from what I'd assumed, but at the same time I feel like my underlying sense of the character is getting affirmed and reinforced, so I'm, like, very unsettled and very reassured all at the same time? It's been an exceedingly weird plot twist to adjust myself to.

From that point of view, I imagine her doing this and then going, "You'll be happy. She was happy. What is the problem?" Then the Doctor says something about the nature of choice and she giggles herself sick.
Oh, very good point about Idris being like a Greek goddess--that is so much what she feels like! And the Olympians were always so careless with how they intervened in human affairs. Your little dialogue has me cracking up--that's exactly how it would go if they could ever talk again, lol.

I am definitely working off faith right now too. Of course, it feels like I've been working off faith this entire series so far. However, River and Eleven are worth it.

And what you said about the new info both challenging and affirming your sense of who River is . . . I feel like I've been going through the exact same thing. It's very emotionally confusing. And exhausting.

"And the Olympians were always so careless with how they intervened in human affairs." Exactly! I'm glad you agree with my interpretation. :)

I find it kind of creepy too. Which I kind of like? Like, in story terms, who River is is, invariably, going to be shaped by who the Doctor is. That's how it works for all the characters, really, and the more closely a character is tied to the Doctor the more that must be true. So I almost prefer that, if that's going to be the case, that it be rather explicit. And River was alway as much symbol and plot device and meta-level deconstruction of the Doctor as she was a character in her own right, so to discover that her identity is so much a matter of her being built out of the particulars of the Doctor's life and who he is . . . it does feel appropriate. And that does give her power to equal his in a way no other character could have, and makes her the perfect tool to deconstruct everything he is (man, myth, light, dark, power, weakness . . .) and resolve some of the conflicts. But, yes, if you think about it as if they're real people it's pretty creepy. I rather like stepping back and taking it all a bit technically, myself, though.

And it is very, very myth/fairytale . . .

It does have some interesting possibilities if it's true. But I feel like it would take away from her agency a bit to be made as a present for him. And I guess it would play into his narcissism in a kind of "Pygmalion and Galatea" sort of way, which could be interesting or disturbing. Or both.

Also, the fact that the Doctor seems to meet EVERYONE nowadays when they are "impressionable young girls" is starting to get not just repetitive but borderline creepy. Like, I know the Doctor is already basically an intergalactic (mostly benevolent) stranger with candy, but like cinderbella333 said, it kind of reeks of grooming.

But then, Moffat seems to be deconstructing the idea of the Doctor being a hero, so maybe this all plays into it.

Ooof, sorry, this turned into a real ramble:

I think she's probably the culmination and defining argument on a lot of issues Moff's been teasing. Like, for example, Rory was made, without his consent, into a plastic replica with the knowledge of a Roman and forced to shoot Amy (as part of a trap for the Doctor, because someone was afraid of him). And that is seriously creepy if you really think about it and certainly undermines his agency. But what ends up mattering about that? His choices, his actions in response to it, his determination to be Rory and to be human and to help Amy are what make him and that whole experience of overcoming that makes him stronger and more than he was. So River will be the product of all these conflicting forces, possibly all trying to control her, but I'm certain what's going to end up mattering is her own choices about it all.

And I'll admit that when she gave that "young, impressionable girl" line back in TIA, I was really annoyed and worried Moff would just be returning once again to his same trope, but finding out that it's not just going to be that she met him very young but that she was so thoroughly formed by him, I have to figure that Moff means to push that issue of the influence the Doctor has over these young people to a head and to really attack it and deconstruct it in that way. He has been building up the critique around it each time he returns to the trope--it's mostly suggested with Reinette, but with Amy we're definitely meant to be thinking that his influence may be malignant, and River certainly seems to realize it based on her "oh, Doctor, why do I let you out?" when she found all Amy's dolls and such.

I guess what I'm saying is that I was worried about River's agency and freedom and independence relative to the Doctor before. Really, really worried. But for the fact that Moff has created this set-up that is so blatantly a challenge to her whole identity and autonomy and agency, that tells me he means for us to be worried and that he's doing it in order to address those very issues and resolve them.

Or maybe I'm being naive. I don't think so, though.

I like your idea about Rory. The theme of making the right, even heroic choices despite your limits and of not letting other people define your existence is really interesting and powerful. If that's what Moffat does with River, I think I'd be happy with it. Even the Doctor has to deal with his past and the impossible choices that were forced on him. As do we all. Whether she was intentionally altered by the TARDIS, programmed by the Silence, or whatever happened to her, that would be an interesting path to go down.

Yeah, the whole impressionable girl thing is cropping up so much I think it has to be leading up to something. I mean, it even happened to Lorna Bucket, who is a minor one-shot character.

I hope you're right. I feel like Moffat is trying to plant leads for so many things, and right now it just feels irritating to me to have so many loose ends. Maybe next half-season there'll be some closure that makes them all worth it.

Yeah, the whole impressionable girl thing is cropping up so much I think it has to be leading up to something. I mean, it even happened to Lorna Bucket, who is a minor one-shot character.
Oh, yes, good point! I'd forgotten about that. For that to come up so clearly in the same episode we find out who River is . . . I have to feel like that's intentional.

I feel like Moffat is trying to plant leads for so many things, and right now it just feels irritating to me to have so many loose ends.
*nods* It's so much to try to account for, it does get irritating. And definitely Moff plays a dangerous game--if he drops any of the threads the end result could be really disturbing, I think. But so far I feel like he's earned the benefit of the doubt from me, so we'll see . . .

I love Lorna. As short as her story is.... there's so much in it and it's so tragic. She basically grew up like Amy, obsessing over the Doctor, but she didn't get any fairy tale. She DIED. -FOR- the Doctor, who didn't even REMEMBER her. Christ, that's awful. The Doctor fucks up people's lives even when he doesn't -know- them.

I'm wondering if he hasn't actually met her yet, because of timelines being weird. If that's the case, it would explain why he doesn't remember her, and it would give her the chance to be in another episode, which I would love. *wishes really hard*

I didn't catch that particular nuance til the second time through, but when I did it hit like a ton of bricks. I really do hope that it's not a matter of timey wimey and he'll "meet" her later, because the wrenching simplicity of that moment is perfect.

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owlboy - 2011-06-14 18:11 (UTC) - Expand

Yeah, the whole impressionable girl thing is cropping up so much I think it has to be leading up to something. I mean, it even happened to Lorna Bucket, who is a minor one-shot character.
When I first watched it I was distracted by Lorna, because I thought she was River. Looking at her now, then oh. She was a little girl who joined the army to meet the Doctor. And died because of it. And going right back to Reinette, then she died too, waiting... There is some dark, dark stuff there.

I like your idea about Rory. The theme of making the right, even heroic choices despite your limits and of not letting other people define your existence is really interesting and powerful.
This whole discussion reminded me very forcefully of Angel... (Promethia: Shut up!) S4 of Angel is all about free will and choices, and towards the end of the season it's revealed that everything in the whole show (more or less) has been leading up to where they are now (it's a gorgeously done retcon!), and the characters start to question if they have any agency at all and then Gunn has this brilliant speech (Fred is a girl, btw):

FRED: Will it make a difference? We really are just pieces being moved around a board.

GUNN: Then we'll kick it over and start a new game. Look, monochrome can yap all he wants about no-name's cosmic plan, but here's a little something I picked up rubbing mojos these past couple of years. The final score can't be rigged. I don't care how many players you grease, that last shot always comes up a question mark. But here's the thing—you never know when you're taking it. It could be when you're duking it out with the Legion of Doom, or just crossing the street deciding where to have brunch. So you just treat it all like it was up to you—the world in the balance—'cause you never know when it is.

FRED: You been practicing that?

GUNN: (smiles) Little bit. (chuckles)

Mm, I've never seen any of Angel, but I have seen Firefly, which also deals a lot (but less explicitly, perhaps) with ideas of free will and whether you can overcome your past or what you've been molded to be. And I love Firefly. Free will one of my favorite things to explore.

Mmmmph mmm mmmr mm m mmmmummpl.

*nods*

And I guess it would play into his narcissism in a kind of "Pygmalion and Galatea" sort of way, which could be interesting or disturbing. Or both.
OOo, meant to say that I'd be very surprised if anybody ever really said that the TARDIS did this--it seems like the sort of thing that has to stay in suggestion and possibility or exist in that sort of quantum state that a lot of TARDIS-related stuff does: did she steal him or did he steal her?

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