Time Loops and World Creation

[promethia_tenk]

ETA: Please be mindful of spoilers in the comments.

Rather O_o sort of speculation that entered my head and demanded to be shared right now . . .

So, on reflection, my favorite thing about the Space & Time episodes for Comic Relief is the way, right at the end, that the Doctor knows his future self is going to come through the door with the information he needs to resolve the loop. This is a step up in sophistication from the time loops we've seen before--like in Time Crash or the loop that gets the Doctor out of the Pandorica--where a character essentially stumbles into a time loop and has to have it explained to them so that they can carry the rest of it out. Mechanically it works out exactly the same: a piece of information that appears seemingly out of nowhere is passed back and forth in a stable loop. But the attitude, somehow, matters immensely. It's almost like the Doctor has willed the information he needs into existence--he's not a pawn going through a loop set out for him, he's creating the loop and causing it to happen.

So the question becomes, how far could you push something like that? In Cinderbella's fic with the pirates, she has River assume that her future self will have buried some treasure in a convenient location so as to get them out of their unfortunate jam--cool. Then last night I was watching the commentary to The Eleventh Hour, and they're talking about the Doctor's habit of walking into situations, getting himself embroiled in them, and then working out how he's going to solve them. And Moffat said something to the effect of "I've always thought of the Doctor as someone who jumps off a tall building and works out what he's going to do about it on the way down . . ."

O_O

Which makes me think of the series six trailers, and the shot of River apparently jumping off a skyscraper in New York. Now . . . I don't think there's a fan watching who doesn't assume the TARDIS is going to appear underneath and catch her. But what if she doesn't actually know that when she jumps in the way she knows he'll show up in ToA because she's sent her message ahead of time? Could she, in fact, throw herself off a building in the presumption that the Doctor will show up to catch her so that, once she's safe, she can send a message back to him with coordinates? This is radical trust indeed, and a radical breech of the line between thoughts and reality--willing the TARDIS into existence, more or less. Even I'm starting to feel like that's cheating, and yet the mechanics still work out exactly the same . . .

OTOH, that's the line that Moffat keeps pushing--the line between thoughts and reality. Amy has already willed the Doctor into existence, albeit by a different mechanic.

ETA2: What the Dormouse Said is a really brilliant River fic by calapine  musing on these kinds of ideas and all the psychological implications.  Highly recommended

ETA3: If you're not too concerned about spoiler/spec, this is the coolest spec about the Best Man River's Ever Known I've yet seen (by cassi0pei4 ).  Not that actually spoilery, I think, but ti does draw on some sensationalist marketing for the opening two-parter and some rather substantial thought-inducing comments by Moff about the mid-season cliffhanger and where the show needs to go in the future.


Ok, back to doing the things I'm supposed to be doing, arrrrrgh.

Comments

[cassi0pei4.livejournal.com]

I actually, am that fan that's not sure the TARDIS is going to catch her. (Some spoilers I've read have stated that the Doctor is imprisoned when they the building-jumping happens, so...maybe it's a future version that comes to get her, but who knows?) I'm sort of 75% the Doctor brings the TARDIS to catch her, 25% she figures out another way to BAMF her way out of the situation.

I've had these sorts of thoughts in a way as well. According to the actual theory surrounding things like time travel, when time is changed, in a parallel universe it happened the other way (well, that's a massive oversimplification from what I understand of the physics, but I think that's the gist). So, in some universe, River just sort of floated out into the abyss with no TARDIS to catch her. Whenever I get these sorts of thoughts I immediately shut down the science bits of my brain, because I don't like thinking of space-frozen!River. :(

[promethia_tenk]

Oooo . . . did not know that. Sorry, I'm in a weird position vis a vis spoilers. I'm sort of . . . as spoiled as I want to be and thus doing a lot of trying to gauge whether any given spoiler warning is something I know already or something new . . .

Not your fault or anything, just no more please.

Anyway--

I'm less concerned really with how she actually manages that particular incidence of jumping off a sky scraper and more with the general implications. What's to keep her from doing something like that? What's to keep any of them from, essentially, thinking whatever they want into existence?

I think part of me actually does believe the sky scraper trick would be valid simply by virtue of being blindingly romantic. Because obviously that's how the laws of fake physics work . . . (But they do, kind of! Old!Kazran and young!Kazran were able to hug in the Christmas special without any kind of Blinovitch limitation effect because . . . shut up, it's sweet, ok?!?) But maybe there really is something to that? River can't just will herself to be saved on the way down, all on her own. She needs, essentially, assent and participation from the Doctor--confirmation from outside herself that this ought to happen, rather than her simply being able to make whatever she wants a reality. That is a practical, realistic limitation of sorts so it's not just like a purely imaginary world where you can do anything.

Sorry, I rambled . . .

Whenever I get these sorts of thoughts I immediately shut down the science bits of my brain, because I don't like thinking of space-frozen!River. :(
Lol--I think the fortunate thing about Doctor Who is that we can ignore just about any physics or other rules we want :)

[cassi0pei4.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry for spoilering you! If it helps, I've no idea whether that spoiler was true as it's from an anonymous spoiler, not an actual article or anything, so I'll still be a bit surprised if it actually happens the way that spoiler says it will.

I think fake physics definitely have a rule that goes something like "And all laws of reality will be fudged if it makes for a touching scene or an excellently amusing line," which I sort of love because said scenes and lines are part of what makes the show so much fun.

I think what strikes me most about the time loops that you're talking about is the degree of trust they involve, which hadn't really occurred to me before. I just love that River and the Doctor aren't just in love and doing crazy time whatsits they're using crazy time whatsits to express their love. God, I love that Moffat's a romantic.

I wonder if the first time River pulled one of these loops she worried at all that the Doctor wouldn't come through for her, sort of like how other women worry about their boyfriend calling after a first date to ask them out again. I now want a fic that deals with that...

[owlboy]

>>first date

"How did your date go?"
"Committed some espionage, jumped out of a building, got rescued by a mad man in a box, saved the universe from almost certain destruction... Yours?"
"...I got stood up."
"Oh."

[cassi0pei4.livejournal.com]

LOVE.

That is so River's life. I would love to read a whole fic like that. River talking to her professor!best friend about her weekend and then the best friend just being all, "Yeah, that happens to me all the time - not."

[owlboy]

I've been playing around with that idea for a series of comics! But I haven't been feeling inspired enough to write them. Sigh

[cassi0pei4.livejournal.com]

*taps owlsie with magic inspiration wand*

[promethia_tenk]

I'm sorry for spoilering you!
Don't worry too much about it. Normally I'm not too fussed about spoilers, and for the most part any individual spoiler doesn't bother me. But with this show there are just so many around . . . I get scared of the creep of it--you can end up knowing so much :-\

I think what strikes me most about the time loops that you're talking about is the degree of trust they involve, which hadn't really occurred to me before. I just love that River and the Doctor aren't just in love and doing crazy time whatsits they're using crazy time whatsits to express their love. God, I love that Moffat's a romantic.
I love this to. After the initial omfgthatwasthecoolestthingever over the opening of ToA had worn off, I was pretty quickly struck by what an overwhelmingly romantic thing it was.

[stick-poker.livejournal.com]

(must... not...)
(No, it's no good)

Without wishing to trivialise the excellence of this whole avenue of philosophical exploration, it's swerving dangerously close, to me, to turning River and the Doctor into... two people who can do anything with time travel as long as they remember to remind each other to do it?

(Sorry)

[promethia_tenk]

Hahahah! No, don't be sorry--that's exactly it.

[stick-poker.livejournal.com]

What an excellent icon.

[owlboy]

>>the Doctor knows his future self is going to come through the door with the information he needs to resolve the loop.

I hadn't really paid much attention to that... and now my head is full of thinky thoughts... Oooh.

[promethia_tenk]

I approve of thinky thoughts! \o/

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

I read an explanation somewhere that the way these time loops work has to do with branching timelines or something like that. Like, basically, any choice you make starts a new universe where you made one choice differently, and since the situations in the time loops are so dangerous, all the universes will end in death except the one where you made the right choice. So you save yourself because all the other yous are dead. Huh...that made more sense before I tried to explain it. I wish I remembered where I read the original theory, which was much more coherent....

[promethia_tenk]

O_O

O_O

O_O

. . . that may be the single coolest thing I have ever heard.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

I wish I could remember where I saw it...it was a really interesting little article.

[cassi0pei4.livejournal.com]

Do you watch Fringe? They deal with this question rather interestingly. The alternate universe in Fringe has these epic changes all from one difference in choice - as in, in one of the universes the twin towers are still standing because the plans targets somewhere else, and so on with other big occasions.

[promethia_tenk]

I've just picked it up relatively recently! Seen maybe eight of ten episodes, but the rest of it is just gonna have to wait til Doctor Who is over. I'm very excited about it, though. It's kind of scratching my X-Files itch and I rather like all the main characters.

[cassi0pei4.livejournal.com]

Fringe is definitely very X-Files, especially in the beginning, but then it starts to develop it's own mythology and you just go, "WHAAAT? That's awesome." It's my second favorite current airing show, after Doctor Who.

[honeynoir.livejournal.com]

Could she, in fact, throw herself off a building in the presumption that the Doctor will show up to catch her so that, once she's safe, she can send a message back to him with coordinates?
This... could work out perfectly. And it is completely plausible, in-universe. Mind = blown. (And now all I can think about is: if the TARDIS exists out of time while in the vortex, is it willed into time with every materialisation? /digresses)

This is radical trust indeed, and a radical breech of the line between thoughts and reality--willing the TARDIS into existence, more or less. Even I'm starting to feel like that's cheating, and yet the mechanics still work out exactly the same . . .
It is such a radical breech... O_o I can imagine River crossing that line; keeping a diary like hers must have a lot to do with both thoughts and (her) reality.

Yes, it is kind of cheating, but it's probably the kind the Doctor would be flattered by approve of. *g*

Finally, if nothing else (having just rewatched S5 and just re-read Dormouse, TY for reminding me of its awesomeness) -- the Doctor is a good wizard, and people generally seem to put their trust in good wizards (even if they claim to hate them).

[promethia_tenk]

This... could work out perfectly. And it is completely plausible, in-universe. Mind = blown.
*g* Mission accomplished! TY.

Yes, it is kind of cheating, but it's probably the kind the Doctor would be flattered by approve of. *g*
This exactly!

[cinderbella333.livejournal.com]

"Now . . . I don't think there's a fan watching who doesn't assume the TARDIS is going to appear underneath and catch her. But what if she doesn't actually know that when she jumps in the way she knows he'll show up in ToA because she's sent her message ahead of time? Could she, in fact, throw herself off a building in the presumption that the Doctor will show up to catch her so that, once she's safe, she can send a message back to him with coordinates?"

That is utterly fascinating! It sounds like something out of the philosophy class I took seven years ago. If that doesn't end up in the show at some point, you just NEED to write a fanfic where she does something like that. Because that's brilliant. And that level of mind-fuckery of all the rules we consider basic and take for granted is what I love about these two characters and how they interact.

(Also, thrills me to no end that my pirate story was mentioned in this post. Thanks for that. :))

[promethia_tenk]

Flattery will get you everywhere ;)

Except, of course, when it doesn't.

Seriously, though, I love the mind-fuckery inherent in this ship too. There's so much potential to be explored--it's hard to resist :)

(Also, thrills me to no end that my pirate story was mentioned in this post. Thanks for that. :))
I mention your stories whenever I can!