promethia_tenk | Kerblam!

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dr who

Kerblam!

I think this might be my favorite plot of the whole season so far?

In that it gave a nuanced sci-fi look into a very real looming social crisis. I was expecting a scathing take-down of Amazon's warehouse practices, which I would have been totally fine with and would have been in keeping with the themes of the season, but instead it went deeper to the issue of what happens when the robots take all of our jobs. Because Amazon and the like are just a prequel, a warm-up to what's going to happen.

If you've been on the internet in the last five years and somehow have never seen 'Humans Need Not Apply,' now would be an excellent time to do that:

"Humans Need Not Apply" (Watch on YouTube)

Actually, I think the most chilling idea of the whole episode is that the human response to robots taking over the jobs that they are better suited to doing (read: most if not all of them) would be some kind of human affirmative action program for employment. Because fighting for the rights of humans to continue serving as inferiorly-performing and badly treated cogs in the system is exactly the kind of unimaginative, reactionary response that we would come up with as a society. I suppose we're meant to take it as read that the power and class structure of this world was so crippling that a society in which nobody actually needs to work was still bent to serve the few and neglect the many. Ok, admittedly that an extremely real possibility. But I'd have liked a line or two about how fifty years ago everybody thought universal basic income would be the solution and then it all went even more wrong. Or something the like. Tell me there are other people out there coming up with better solutions here, even if they can't get them enacted. I do know that Human Resource Lady's line at the end that they are going to make the company 50% human-powered came over more than a little tone deaf. Was she watching the rest of the episode? Am I meant to be left with this crushing sense that nothing has been solved? (Actually, the answer to that is probably yes, isn't it?)

I did like the Doctor's assertion that systems aren't good or evil, only our responses to them. Because, look, humans not having to do menial jobs (or any jobs) should be a good thing, if we approach it correctly. But we're currently doing absolutely nothing to try to make that the case.

It's rare for Doctor Who to really engage me on this level, but I liked it. I'll admit this issue is a bit of a personal fascination of mine.

Otherwise, then, the character stuff continues to be lacking, but weaponized bubble wrap is probably the most ingenious Doctor Who menace of all time.

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I appreciated the ''it's not the technology, it's how people use it to exploit others'' line because I am sooo tiiired of the robot apocalypse scenario where the robots wig out and kill us all because progress is scary. It was a little bit Black Mirror in that way.

Also Thirteen being like ''let us help you or you'll die!'' and then letting industrial terrorist boy explode himself without even a shrug.

I appreciated the ''it's not the technology, it's how people use it to exploit others'' line because I am sooo tiiired of the robot apocalypse scenario where the robots wig out and kill us all because progress is scary.
Yeah, I don't really have any time for that in my sci fi. Come back when you have some productive ideas.

Also Thirteen being like ''let us help you or you'll die!'' and then letting industrial terrorist boy explode himself without even a shrug.
Yes! That was a bit cold and yet fair and therefore awesome.

Nope, still don’t like it.

I was hoping for/expecting ‘Treat Workers Like People’. Instead I got ‘Everyone Deserves a McJob’.

Because the Luddite’s POV was confirmed by the narrative. He may have been wanting to commit mass murder, but his point was accepted as valid and the Kerblam! bosses were implementing changes in direct response to what he said.

So hurrah for a future where more people can get tagged at work, have a boss breathe down their neck and see their family twice a year!

As dystopias go, it’s not far off the Bad Wolf world of year 200,000 when the human race is just watching TV and being harvested for Dalek spare parts. In contrast I suppose a McJob looks attractive.

As a warning I guess it works well. As a narrative it’s as depressing to me as ‘Rosa’ was to El Sandifer.

☹

I mean, fair dos. And it seems to be a bit of a trend with this season of the Doctor . . . not particularly trying to fix things? So hopefully that's going somewhere, because if not it's just depressing.

I'm just kinda impressed because Doctor Who doing social issues hardly ever does a thing for me. At all. I'm not offended by it. Like, you need a plot, sure make it about the exploitation of workers is bad or whatever, that's a good message to have. But I almost always find the way Doctor Who handles these things really pat and it doesn't end up being either emotionally cathartic or thought-provoking. I prefer my social issues in messy, Battlestar Galactica shaped forms or similar. But this actually made me think. Now, the more I think about it the more I think they flubbed the landing in some critical way. But that's thinking about the issues nonetheless, and that's basically unprecedented for me in the world of Doctor Who.

Not that I'm gonna run out and rewatch it, mind. It wasn't that good.

All the comments on Nos' post echo my sentiments.

I am v happy that it worked for you, but the whole 'There are no jobs' thing was... well, presumably only applicable to unskilled labour. I can't see a society not needing, say, lawyers and doctors and artists and engineers and all that jazz.

So all the episode says is that poor, under-educated people are forever trapped in crappy jobs. But hey, they should be grateful for them, because a robot might take it! Go capitalism!

Also, and this was something I thought of and then forgot, the Assessing Machine (that picked up the Doctor's two hearts) was also supposed to pick up on mental ability...

And it assigned the two most highly educated/intelligent people (Charlie & the Doctor) to Maintenance. I think there is something very wrong with that machine. (I was fully expecting Graham to be whisked off to Strategic Planning or something after the Doctor swapped places, but no.)

This episode was aggravating.

All the comments on Nos' post echo my sentiments.
I wasn't really able to make it through the post. IDK, this is my fundamental problem with the Doctor Who morality play approach to social issues. Either it gets it right and it's all very obvious and unprovoking of any critical thought and everybody pats themselves on the back for having right opinions and watching a show that also has right opinions, OR something goes wrong and suddenly everybody is yelling and it just makes me very tired and not wanting to deal with fandom at all. (Also, ugh, the episode The Sunmakers that somebody is complaining about in that post is the one I'm on right now in watching Four. Dammit, that was my happy place! Not that it would have been a favorite episode anyway, but I'd have ignored it more readily.)

I am v happy that it worked for you, but the whole 'There are no jobs' thing was... well, presumably only applicable to unskilled labour. I can't see a society not needing, say, lawyers and doctors and artists and engineers and all that jazz.
Well, this is exactly the point of Humans Need Not Apply--that the areas we think are impervious to automation are almost certainly automatable, that this is a problem that is gong to face all of us, and it's not just an issue of training people who used to do manual labor up to be able to do more white-collar-style jobs that we will magically find for them . . . somewhere. Not that the episode explicitly suggests that doctors and musicians have been replaced as well, but as soon as they brought in the idea that there are laws saying humans have to be given 10% of even the jobs that are obviously more suited to robots it just tells me that that's exactly the kind of society they're facing. Mind you, even replacing just the jobs that are obviously suited to robots with robots is still a majority of the workforce. We don't have to talk about replacing doctors and lawyers before you throw all of society into crisis.

Possibly I'm just reading across the episode, but it's definitely ideas the episode is invoking.

And it assigned the two most highly educated/intelligent people (Charlie & the Doctor) to Maintenance. I think there is something very wrong with that machine. (I was fully expecting Graham to be whisked off to Strategic Planning or something after the Doctor swapped places, but no.)
I think someone pointed out in Nos' post that the system put the Doctor in maintenance so she'd find Charlie. If the Doctor hadn't swapped placed with Graham the episode would have been done in five minutes. Not sure why it put Charlie in maintenance, but in the Doctor's case it's rather clever.

I'm kind of with you both on this one (hi! jumping in on your conversation because of who I am as a person!).

My initial reaction to this one was mostly positive - I actually felt it had some of the strongest character stuff this season, in that all our Team Tardis actually got something to *do*. Not that I mind them being mostly passive witnesses to events once in a while, but I do feel like there's been a LOT of that this season, and combined with the fact there are so many of them, I've struggled more than usual to get a handle on people's personalities. Yas, in particular, I feel has been shortchanged and relegated to the background more than necessary - even in last week's mostly amazing ep, which was actually ABOUT her family. So I really enjoyed seeing her and Ryan being more proactive in this ep - it felt like DW as I am familiar with it, and that left me feeling happy when it was over.

I also loved the little continuity nods (the fez bit was GLORIOUS, as was the Unicorn & the Wasp mention), I enjoyed the Doctor getting to show some righteous anger, and then asking if it was a bit too bombastic (lol), I loved her hiding in a wall cabinet, bonding with Twirly, and her lovely face at the end when Yas asked to go and see Dan's daughter. I really enjoyed that the episode's plot was a bit more twisty than previous eps this season - it did have the same ultimate reveal that several eps this season have had (what you thought was the monster was not the monster!) but I really didn't see this one coming. And I liked that it did continue to examine social issues in the way this season has been very clear about doing.

BUT. I do super agree with Elisi that the ending was really off. It was made repeatedly clear during the ep that these jobs are NOT something humans should necessarily aspire to (Ryan's experiences, the kind of broken way Kira said 'work gives us purpose!' etc) and yet that was never questioned or examined by the Doctor. I was also expecting an ending along the lines of 'Introduction of Galactic Basic Income!' or 'Treat Workers Like People!' and it just...didn't happen. Not necessarily an ending where we SAW that being implemented, because I get that this is not where this season is going, but perhaps the Doctor doing or saying something to nudge things in the right direction. Like, I don't really have much hope that her 'treat people with respect' speech to the Manager Dude is really going to impact very much.

I guess this ties in with Elisi's recent meta about how Thirteen is now very much going for winning the little battles rather than the whole war - she dropped in, she helped out in a small way, and now she's off again without attempting to change the course of the whole society. But it's taking some getting used to.

It would be interesting, I think, to do a comparison of all the New Who Future-Human-Dystopia eps, to see what they are saying and how the Doctor reacts to them in their different regenerations. Elisi mentioned Bad Wolf, and this ep actually reminded ME a lot of The Long Game (poss because I've watched it recently) - which, as we know, the Doctor dramatically intervened in, thereby helping to *cause* the later Bad Wolf situation. But there's also things like New Earth / Gridlock and The Beast Below and other eps where we see humans, in space, in the future, embedded in their society and what they have made of their worlds, and how the Doctor reacts to the systemic injustices.

ANYWAY, that was a lot of rambling, sorry! I feel like I haven't done this at you both in a long time. Thank you for sharing your thoughts which made me have thoughts! <3

Hi you! Yay, it's like getting the gang back together.

I will try to do a proper reply at some point, but tonight is my eldest daughter's birthday and tomorrow we are going to watch a performance that my middle daughter is in, so... maybe Wednesday?

The episode had many good qualities, but the ending made me feel like the icon.

It IS! And I have missed it. Hai friends! I missed you! <3 I hope your daughter’s birthday was lovely :)

And yes that is an extremely relevant icon to this ending. It’s just so weird?! How did it make it to screen without someone saying ‘er...guys, about that last five minutes...’ I wonder what the author *thought* he was saying?! This reminds me a bit of In The Forest Of The Night, which was also a lovely ep with some great moments and potentially positive messages (about climate change, about being open to possibility, etc)...all undercut by some really gross anti-meds messaging in the last few minutes.

It IS! And I have missed it. Hai friends! I missed you!
Missed you too!

<3 I hope your daughter’s birthday was lovely :)
Yes it was very nice and All The Family came so we had Many Children running around and were very grateful when they left...

...all undercut by some really gross anti-meds messaging in the last few minutes.
Yeah, the more I think about it, the angrier I am. On the plus side, Sleep No More is no longer the worst episode, so all hail Mark Gatiss.

Ahahaha omg, Sleep No More is so dull I had literally blocked it from my memory and it took me a moment to figure out what you were talking about 😆

Also that is a great review you’ve linked to in your new post.

(Hi Promethia, sorry for hijacking your post!)

Ahahaha omg, Sleep No More is so dull I had literally blocked it from my memory and it took me a moment to figure out what you were talking about 😆
Yes, that's how I feel about it too! But no more! There are worse crimes than dullness.

Also that is a great review you’ve linked to in your new post.
That blog is a treasure trove!!!

And Promethia won't mind. I even have an icon.

Sleep No More must be full of Silents. It's impossible to retain in memory.

Blather all you want it's all good <3

I'm kind of with you both on this one (hi! jumping in on your conversation because of who I am as a person!).
Hello, welcome, please hijack as much as you want!

My initial reaction to this one was mostly positive - I actually felt it had some of the strongest character stuff this season, in that all our Team Tardis actually got something to *do*.
Just doing a lot of nodding along to this paragraph. I think ultimately the thing I'm struggling with the most this season is not feeling particularly connected to or interested in any of the characters. But this one at least made me feel like I was having a good time with the characters?

I also loved the little continuity nods (the fez bit was GLORIOUS, as was the Unicorn & the Wasp mention), I enjoyed the Doctor getting to show some righteous anger, and then asking if it was a bit too bombastic (lol), I loved her hiding in a wall cabinet, bonding with Twirly, and her lovely face at the end when Yas asked to go and see Dan's daughter.
*more nods* I so want to love her, but . . .

I really enjoyed that the episode's plot was a bit more twisty than previous eps this season
There were a few glorious, exhilarating minutes there of feeling swept along through twists I was only just keeping up with. My kingdom for more of that.

BUT. I do super agree with Elisi that the ending was really off.
Yeah, I don't disagree with people on that front. Like, I see where everybody is coming from. I just I'm just more willing to ignore it because I thought the rest of the episode did plenty of thought-provoking stuff. I've never really been here to be handed lessons like 'treating people like machines is bad, mmmmkay?' on a plate. I'd prefer if they'd get the messages right but . . . My capacity for sustained moral outrage is like three minutes long; I'm not expending it on a television episode.

Not necessarily an ending where we SAW that being implemented, because I get that this is not where this season is going, but perhaps the Doctor doing or saying something to nudge things in the right direction.
They kind of ended The Almost People/The Rebel Flesh like this: dropping the survivors off at corporate to whistle-blow. I was totally expecting a similar ending here. (Coincidentally another episode that I liked waaaaaaay more than fandom at large, and the last episode I can remember like this were I was actually interested in the plot for its own sake. I thought that one was fascinating.)

Like, I don't really have much hope that her 'treat people with respect' speech to the Manager Dude is really going to impact very much.
I think for me my read on the Human Resources lady for the whole episode is that she might be well-intentioned but also massively deluded? So when she said she was going to make the company 50% human-powered at the end, I think I'm more willing to read it as the episode itself not necessarily endorsing what she's doing? Which doesn't excuse the Doctor doing nothing, but It kinda gives the ending some more interpretive wiggle room for me.

I guess this ties in with Elisi's recent meta about how Thirteen is now very much going for winning the little battles rather than the whole war - she dropped in, she helped out in a small way, and now she's off again without attempting to change the course of the whole society. But it's taking some getting used to.
I'm starting to wonder if 13 is, in fact, depressed? This level of ineffectualness is really unusual. And she seems to be floundering in some other ways, still seems unsure of herself, still figuring things out, her asking Ryan and Yaz if she was too bombastic, being super careful in how much she leads people on. Maybe all this caution is a good thing; I think we can all identify the problems with the opposite approach. But the longer we go the more I'm feeling like she's stuck and can't figure out how to move forward at all. Twelve wasn't in a great place in Twice Upon a Time, and it's not like something magical has happened in between to fix her. Say what you will for the Doctor's massive internal conflicts in NuWho, but it did give him a lot of momentum. With those largely resolved, I kind of wonder if 13 is left just feeling empty?

It would be interesting, I think, to do a comparison of all the New Who Future-Human-Dystopia eps, to see what they are saying and how the Doctor reacts to them in their different regenerations. Elisi mentioned Bad Wolf, and this ep actually reminded ME a lot of The Long Game (poss because I've watched it recently) - which, as we know, the Doctor dramatically intervened in, thereby helping to *cause* the later Bad Wolf situation. But there's also things like New Earth / Gridlock and The Beast Below and other eps where we see humans, in space, in the future, embedded in their society and what they have made of their worlds, and how the Doctor reacts to the systemic injustices.
Mmmm, it's a good point. I think the thing that's immediately jumping out to me is that in The Beast Below, the Doctor was essentially going to do nothing before Amy saved him from himself. He had a band aid solution; he wasn't going to topple their social order. But Amy is nosy and bossy and essentially wonderful. Maybe we're seeing some of the downside to the Doctor keeping her companions a bit at arm's length--none of them are really able to challenge her.

ANYWAY, that was a lot of rambling, sorry! I feel like I haven't done this at you both in a long time. Thank you for sharing your thoughts which made me have thoughts! <3
It was been too long! YAY THOUGHTS! <3

LOL! I haven't seen it and am avoiding spoilers...but you should see my correspondence list on this episode.

1. Infruriating, I need a protest button
2. Amazon Satire meets Middle Dicksonian twist and not in a good way
3. Amusing work satire until you end up with ridiculous right-wing ending

And then..."this is my favorite plot of the whole season so far?"

I'm guessing it is a wee bit controversial for a Doctor Who episode?

Well, they screwed the landing, I'm not gonna deny that. I just found the episode genuinely thought-provoking in ways I wasn't at all expecting.

But, uh, I seem to be somewhat alone in this opinion . . .

I haven't seen it yet, so maybe not? (I'm less...well, sensitive to the political messages in fictional content.)

There are times that I think going on the internet or social media after seeing a television series...or reading a book or film that I loved, is really not a good idea.

Yeah, the morality play style of dealing with social issues that Doctor Who tends to engage in never does much for me one way or the other? I prefer the kind of messy realism you get with something like Battlestar Galactica. So I can see what people think this episode is saying and why they find it so angering, but . . . I just don't care? And frankly, if it had gotten its messaging right I wouldn't have cared either. It's not what I watch Doctor Who for.

I agree. It's why Doctor Who, Star Trek, Twilight Zone and a lot of the episodic style sci-fi series don't quite work or appeal to me for lengthy periods of time. It's also my difficulty with a lot of speculative science fiction.

I think it depends on what your focus in on?

For me, it's characters, the relationships between them, the plot (how they solve the problem), and then, the theme or message. I don't really want to be preached too, I can go to church for that -- and well lately have been avoiding it.

My difficulty with moralistic fiction is often the characters and plot get lost playing to the demands of the theme. Also, there's a tendency to be a bit "neat" or black and white with the moral messages. I much prefer series like Battlestar Galatica which pursues the gray areas of the moral landscape, depicting how it morality is shifting thing, not stagnate and often depending on various other mitigating factors.

I like Doctor Who, but I don't take it that seriously. And so far this season about four episodes were enjoyable.

My problems with this episode weren't thematic in nature. I just had difficulties with the plot structure and felt there wasn't enough focus on the characters. I liked last week's a bit better in that regard.

Frequently true. I read enough to get what people are on about, but yeah . . . not sure I'll find it fruitful to dwell on. But I've not been deeply engaged with this season as it is.

Agreed. At the end of the day, it's subjective. I can't say I'm that engaged with Who either...but then I haven't been engaged since Doctor Song was killed off. I'm trying to like Jodi Whittaker's Who, but...wildly ambivalent.

I have a weird relationship to Who, Star Trek, and a lot of other genre shows that tend to have monster of the week structures because I do rather love them, but the stories frequently do nothing for me. I think that separation allows me to more or less ignore the stories and thus enjoy the characters more? Whereas something like Battlestar the characters and storylines are so enmeshed. It's all one weighty block and you have to take it all or none. I've never read fic for BSG because it feels like the show leaves no room for it (I'm sure others would disagree, based on the existence of BSG fic, but in my brain it just doesn't work that way, it's not that kind of show).

But, yeah, I'm not here to be preached at by these kinds of shows on the week by week level. If the broader series-wide themes don't appeal to me, I won't watch, but story by story I only really care insofar as it affects the characters I care about. Debating the intricacies of was X action the right one to do in the situation of the week I couldn't care less about.

My problems with this episode weren't thematic in nature. I just had difficulties with the plot structure and felt there wasn't enough focus on the characters. I liked last week's a bit better in that regard.
Last week's was far more straight-forward so it did give the characters more room to breathe. I think last week's was probably the strongest episode of the season so far. This one I liked because it was attempting a far more complicated structure than anything else this year. Even if it screwed it up, my brain perked up and went 'oh yay, something is happening (finally)!'

Agreed. At the end of the day, it's subjective. I can't say I'm that engaged with Who either...but then I haven't been engaged since Doctor Song was killed off. I'm trying to like Jodi Whittaker's Who, but...wildly ambivalent.
I've come to love the Capaldi years deeply, but it was work. I was definitely half checked-out for two years. I knew this season was going to be a let-down from Moffat, but I guess I was hoping it would be more fun than this is and that I'd be more engaged with the characters. Chibbs has always pretty reliably delivered on both of those fronts, and it's just confusing and frustrating that it's not happening here.

Edited 2018-11-24 13:47 (UTC)

I knew this season was going to be a let-down from Moffat, but I guess I was hoping it would be more fun than this is and that I'd be more engaged with the characters. Chibbs has always pretty reliably delivered on both of those fronts, and it's just confusing and frustrating that it's not happening here.

The comedy is missing. Or rather Moffat was better at comedy -- makes sense he came from situational comedy (his first series was Coupling), while Chinbal and to a degree RT Davies are more dramatic writers. I miss the humor.

But, yeah, I'm not here to be preached at by these kinds of shows on the week by week level. If the broader series-wide themes don't appeal to me, I won't watch, but story by story I only really care insofar as it affects the characters I care about.

I've noticed that preaching can occur in the "serial format" and the "episodic or monster of the week format". Just as there are monster of the week series that really aren't preachy at all -- and you have to work to find the theme.(I don't really see Doctor Who as all that preachy...often its theme is buried in the action and fans fight over what it is trying to say. LOL!)

I've noticed that if a show-runner sticks with a show too long, and gets really popular, they have tendency to get preachy or use their series as their own personal soap box. (Doctor Who cycles through show-runners and leads too often for it to get preachy. I'll give it that. Does it have morality plays of the week? Yes. But often the morality gets buried in the plot hijinks...that the fans spend the next two weeks arguing over what it was.)

Debating the intricacies of was X action the right one to do in the situation of the week I couldn't care less about.

Probably wise. 98% of the fan kerfuffles I've seen in fandoms (doesn't matter which one, seems to be the common denominator), are about the moral actions of the characters. Fans are always arguing and getting huffy about whether X or Y was right to do this or that.

I admit I like to argue about the moral implications of the action, but I'm more interested in the motivations behind it. Or what it reveals about the character. Also if X was morally superior week after week -- the show would be boring and unrealistic. That said...what X does may or may not have a greater bearing on the thematic arc. Depends on X's role in the story, I guess, and why the writers went that direction. For example Doctor Who not caring that much about Charlie and more focused on whizzing the others to safety, was in character and made sense. Charlie was impossible to save, and the Doctor has lost a lot of people. I think to a degree the Doctor is struggling with how to process those losses, prevent more, and stay sane.
That can be an interesting discussion. But if you waste time arguing over whether this Doctor is more moral than the last one...you've lost me. LOL!

I realised that my comment could be summed up as:

'Intellect and Romance Triumph over Brute Force and Cynicism'

This episode was the opposite, ergo, Bad Doctor Who.

*nods* You're not wrong.

I mean, this was basically my feeling for huge swathes of Ten's run. I didn't have the fullness of Doctor Who background to express it in the same way, but it was 'this show and this character are absolutely not being what this show and this character constantly declare themselves to be.' Eventually I felt like the show came around to admitting that this had been going on and going on intentionally, but I was incredibly uncomfortable with how long Rusty strung things along asking us to love and believe in the Doctor anyway.

Something went wrong with this episode, and I have a feeling no matter what happens with the rest of the season a lot of people are still going to loathe this one with a fiery passion and I'm gonna feel like it was one of the more interesting ones of the season. But I've gotta say that this is the first episode that's made me feel like perhaps this season and this Doctor are actually going somewhere?

I mean, this was basically my feeling for huge swathes of Ten's run. I didn't have the fullness of Doctor Who background to express it in the same way, but it was 'this show and this character are absolutely not being what this show and this character constantly declare themselves to be.'
Well I very much liked it at the time (give me a tortured hero with a god complex and I'll be interested!), but I still remember watching Eleven and it being like a huge missing piece of jigsaw had been added and suddenly I realised that THIS was what the show was meant to be. (I have told you this before, but yeah. Going from Eleven and back to Ten must have been jarring) But then Nine was upfront about him being a walking shell of a man who had to kill his own people and Ten was a ruthless bastard from the word go ('No second chances, I'm that kind of a man'), so it never pulled its punches.

Something went wrong with this episode, and I have a feeling no matter what happens with the rest of the season a lot of people are still going to loathe this one with a fiery passion and I'm gonna feel like it was one of the more interesting ones of the season. But I've gotta say that this is the first episode that's made me feel like perhaps this season and this Doctor are actually going somewhere?
Well if being 'Too nice' is the overarching problem, then yes, it's definitely being consistent, and this episode is where this became impossible to ignore.

If it's going somewhere - I will mark it down as interesting. If not - I shall just keep hating it!

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