River Stuffs

[promethia_tenk]

1) Vid rec: Land's End by cherryice (River Song, awake in the waiting sea.) OMG, guys, go watch this now. It's . . . a River vid. I mean about River, about her life (and all the rest of their lives, too--I think especially Amy). Anyone struggling with the AGMGTW reveal, I think this might . . . actually . . . help? In a cathartic sense, cause it's not really a pretty picture. At any rate, it's amazing. Go watch many, many times!

2) Question: I've been meaning to ask for awhile, but it seemed very a propos to the vid above ('let the walls cave in'): if I were to write something up comparing River to Echo from Dollhouse, would that be of any interest to anyone but me? It would basically be about both women and their boxes (Echo and the Dollhouse/ River and the TARDIS, the astronaut suit, Stormcage, the Library computer, etc. . . .) and the complicated, push-pull, quasi-symbiotic relationships they have to them. Or is bringing up Dollhouse enough to put everybody off from the get-go?

3) Observation: Watched "The Pandorica Opens" last night for the first time since AGMGTW, and it struck me that that episode makes a lot more sense if you look at it as a systemic attack against River. I mean, obviously the Alliance believes it's all about the Doctor, but I think whoever is pulling the strings is actually after River in some way. Think about it: they locked her husband up in a box so he can't help her, had her father shoot her mother before her mother could even have her, and blew up the time machine that helped make her what she was, on the very date she was conceived. If you put the Doctor in the middle of everything, it doesn't fit together nearly as well, particularly Rory shooting Amy, which always seemed a bit random and 'what was the point in that?' The interesting thing is, though, that if Person Pulling the Strings really was after River, I'm not sure that they were trying to wipe her out so much as unmoor her. If this person knows enough about the TARDIS to be able to remotely control it and cause it to explode, probably they would realize that it would also preserve River inside as she is, even while all the foundations of her life, everything that helped create her, is being destroyed? It's like they wanted River without her context.

Comments

[juniperphoenix]

That was an awesome vid. Thanks for the link!

Very interesting point about "The Pandorica Opens." If you're right that the goal is not to destroy River, but to do something with her once she's been isolated, then it seems to me that whoever's behind it must have been based or able to take refuge outside the universe (since, aside from River and the TARDIS locked in an eternal moment, everything in the universe was being destroyed). Handily, we have "The Doctor's Wife" to show us that travel outside the universe is possible... also, I wonder whether parallel universes such as Pete's World were affected by the explosion.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the rec! That vid is lovely and creepy in all the best ways. :)

As for the Dollhouse/DW meta, I would be interested if it weren't that I've never seen Dollhouse....I'd still sort of like to see the River side of it, even if the Dollhouse bits would mostly be lost on me.

Ooh, that's an interesting observation! That actually does make the episode make more sense, and it would tie this season and S5 together nicely.

[beccatoria.livejournal.com]

Yes - I saw that vid - gorgeous work and like you say, somehow manages to bypass the parts of the story that I am afraid of by convincing me it's meant to be messy and complicated and frightening instead of glib; intelligent instead of clever? I guess we'll see how the second half of the series spins out?

As to your last point, that's actually a very interesting point. I'm not sure I agree that they would have known that the TARDIS would keep her safe? Since they didn't know she'd be in it necessarily? Though if they did that's an interesting viewpoint and the idea of River without context is likewise fascinating.

But what really does grab me is your point that the plan definitely looks more like trying to stop River from existing than anything else. I mean, I'd already partially clocked that because Moffat had said there was a reason why the Silence blew up the universe on Amy and Rory's wedding day and as soon as it was revealed that was also River's date of conception, and all the stuff about whether or not she's a weapon, I figured someone was trying to prevent River, by blowing up the thing that made her special (the TARDIS) on the day she would have been conceived. But thinking about everything else as directed attacks on her too is new - not necessarily just collateral they could not have predicted, particularly your point about why Rory kills Amy. Which works okay as just him being programmed to kill any allies of the Doctor, but is far more interesting if it's yet another safety to prevent River's existence.

Again...I guess we await the second half of the season?

[owlboy]

I would love to see River+Echo meta, even though you know my feelings about Dollhouse :P I'm interested in your perspective on Dollhouse since its so different from mine.

>>Watched "The Pandorica Opens" last night for the first time since AGMGTW, and it struck me that that episode makes a lot more sense if you look at it as a systemic attack against River.

I've actually been contemplating this for a while, but I thought people would go "naaah" if I ever posted about it XD I was thinking the other day, who wants River SO DEAD they tried to kill her mom AND blow up the Universe with her in the center of it? Isn't that OVERKILL? Perhaps since she defected to the Doctor's side, the guys that created her to fight him are scared of their combined power? And perhaps her apology ["I'm sorry, my love..."] is because she realises this is about her and the Doctor has been caught up in it? IDK.

[cinderbella333.livejournal.com]

I will look into that vid rec. I know zero about Dollhouse but I'd probably still be interested in reading it.

And three: FLAIL! OMG, you are SO, SO right. "blew up the time machine that helped make her what she was, on the very date she was conceived" And hell, they blew up the time machine WITH HER IN IT. If you look at it as an attack on her, that really, really works. And it's later in her timeline too, so if she ends up doing something with the Doctor later in *his* timeline, earlier in hers, it would make sense that when they're attacking her, because of something she does in the Doctor's future, it would be in those early episodes. Which makes one wonder. That's very close to when she dies in the Library. When the TARDIS bring her to that date and then goes haywire (perhaps because they are attacking River/trying to kill her), doesn't it say, "Silence will fall"? And then people have been talking about the title, "Silence in the Library," which makes me wonder . . . Did they actually get her? Meaning, was she set up to go to the Library as a progression of this unseen force trying to unmake her? After all, the Doctor nearly died there. If he died as Ten, that would definitely have affected River being born. Was it a trap to get her (and/or the Doctor)? Starting to feel a bit like a conspiracy theory, but still! I think there's something in what you were saying. Until proven otherwise in canon, this is now my head-canon. And that makes that episode even more interesting for me. Thank you for that.

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

Ohhh, that's brilliant!! Wow! *Stares* It makes loads of sense, too...seems the Doctor got it wrong again. Tis not all about Amy or him, it's all about River in the end. Hasn't it always been?

And I like that idea....maybe there is an opposing faction to her creators? That would make loads of sense, too. Someone trying to stop her from being made, by unmaking the time-lines that put her in play. Only they didn't succeed and actually set the course for her and the Doctor's destruction.

*Is thinky*

You laid this out gorgeously! Thank you!

[sarahandcocoa.livejournal.com]

Re: Observations about Pandorica - You're so much better than I am at making connections and figuring things out, and you could be really onto something here! It makes a lot of sense when you think about it from a River-centric POV. But who would be trying to stop River from existing? Madam Korvarian wants to adopt and raise her, and the Silents use the Spacesuit to protect her. And why does the Alliance think its the Doctor who makes the TARDIS explode? (Or is it that he caused this whole thing by introducing Amy & Rory into the TARDIS and allowing them to conceive a baby with a 'Time Head' that later becomes his wife?) It's a great idea you have here, but once again we have far too many questions than answers from Moffat!

RE: Vid Rec - it isn't working for me, is it on youtube?

[honeynoir.livejournal.com]

As I'm waiting for the vid to load, and since I don't know much about Dollhouse, I'll skip to #3.

I'd like to subscribe to this theory, please. Your brain is marvellous. Now that I think about it, a lot of plot threads that used to be solved with "it was all about Amy and/or the Doctor and/or Rory" can now also be "all about River". Hmm.

[sea_thoughts]

Watched "The Pandorica Opens" last night for the first time since AGMGTW, and it struck me that that episode makes a lot more sense if you look at it as a systemic attack against River... Think about it: they locked her husband up in a box so he can't help her, had her father shoot her mother before her mother could even have her, and blew up the time machine that helped make her what she was, on the very date she was conceived.

Holy crap. o.o So why does this person want to take River out of her context? So they can control her?