promethia_tenk | River Stuffs

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River Stuffs

1) Vid rec: Land's End by

cherryice (River Song, awake in the waiting sea.) OMG, guys, go watch this now. It's . . . a River vid. I mean about River, about her life (and all the rest of their lives, too--I think especially Amy). Anyone struggling with the AGMGTW reveal, I think this might . . . actually . . . help? In a cathartic sense, cause it's not really a pretty picture. At any rate, it's amazing. Go watch many, many times!

2) Question: I've been meaning to ask for awhile, but it seemed very a propos to the vid above ('let the walls cave in'): if I were to write something up comparing River to Echo from Dollhouse, would that be of any interest to anyone but me? It would basically be about both women and their boxes (Echo and the Dollhouse/ River and the TARDIS, the astronaut suit, Stormcage, the Library computer, etc. . . .) and the complicated, push-pull, quasi-symbiotic relationships they have to them. Or is bringing up Dollhouse enough to put everybody off from the get-go?

3) Observation: Watched "The Pandorica Opens" last night for the first time since AGMGTW, and it struck me that that episode makes a lot more sense if you look at it as a systemic attack against River. I mean, obviously the Alliance believes it's all about the Doctor, but I think whoever is pulling the strings is actually after River in some way. Think about it: they locked her husband up in a box so he can't help her, had her father shoot her mother before her mother could even have her, and blew up the time machine that helped make her what she was, on the very date she was conceived. If you put the Doctor in the middle of everything, it doesn't fit together nearly as well, particularly Rory shooting Amy, which always seemed a bit random and 'what was the point in that?' The interesting thing is, though, that if Person Pulling the Strings really was after River, I'm not sure that they were trying to wipe her out so much as unmoor her. If this person knows enough about the TARDIS to be able to remotely control it and cause it to explode, probably they would realize that it would also preserve River inside as she is, even while all the foundations of her life, everything that helped create her, is being destroyed? It's like they wanted River without her context.

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That was an awesome vid. Thanks for the link!

Very interesting point about "The Pandorica Opens." If you're right that the goal is not to destroy River, but to do something with her once she's been isolated, then it seems to me that whoever's behind it must have been based or able to take refuge outside the universe (since, aside from River and the TARDIS locked in an eternal moment, everything in the universe was being destroyed). Handily, we have "The Doctor's Wife" to show us that travel outside the universe is possible... also, I wonder whether parallel universes such as Pete's World were affected by the explosion.

I'm really excited about that vid--glad you liked it too!

I was pretty unimpressed with all the "it's OMEGA!" speculation that went through fandom before TPO/TBB, but awhile back I read a review of AGMGTW that actually tied it in with River and had Omega pulling the strings from outside the universe to create this Time Lord Eve and restart the species, and that . . . that almost started to make sense. I've got some problems with how convenient and easy River's creation seems.

Oh, interesting. I'm pretty new to the fandom and hadn't heard of Omega before. *gives thanks for the TARDIS wiki*

Yeah, I just got into Who last year myself, so I'm always lacking in background. But I got tired real fast of Who fans' rush to see every new development as a return of [Classic series character or element X].

I found the review, though, if you're interested (no pressure). I don't know if I agree with all of it, but it definitely gets the thinky-thoughts going!

Ooh, that's very interesting. I really liked the review's speculation on why the Church would go after the Doctor.

But I got tired real fast of Who fans' rush to see every new development as a return of [Classic series character or element X].

*nods* I think that desire is pretty prevalent in fandoms with a long history and lots of canon; I used to see it all the time in Power Rangers. Of course it's possible to bring back old elements and do it well, but I also think it can be limiting, as it means passing up opportunities for the story to grow in new directions. I'm really glad, for example, that River is her own person and not, e.g., a regeneration of Romana.

Thanks for the rec! That vid is lovely and creepy in all the best ways. :)

As for the Dollhouse/DW meta, I would be interested if it weren't that I've never seen Dollhouse....I'd still sort of like to see the River side of it, even if the Dollhouse bits would mostly be lost on me.

Ooh, that's an interesting observation! That actually does make the episode make more sense, and it would tie this season and S5 together nicely.

Thanks for the rec! That vid is lovely and creepy in all the best ways. :)
Right? You're very welcome!

I'd still sort of like to see the River side of it, even if the Dollhouse bits would mostly be lost on me.
I think you'd probably be able to follow what I would want to say about Dollhouse pretty easily, even if you haven't seen it. It would be totally spoiler-y, though, for anyone planning to watch it at some point. And then it's a challenging show-- a lot of people found it too off-putting to watch or had major problems with its premise and how that was explored (programmable people, available to order for various engagements).

Ooh, that's an interesting observation! That actually does make the episode make more sense, and it would tie this season and S5 together nicely.
Thank you! Why the Nestenes would have Rory shoot Amy, in particular, always bugged me. I mean, it's very interesting for their characters, so I guess you could accept a hand-wave-y "they're bad guys so they shot her" explanation, but I do generally expect more from Moff.

I think you'd probably be able to follow what I would want to say about Dollhouse pretty easily, even if you haven't seen it.

I have some level of fandom-osmosis knowledge of the show, and there's always Wikipedia if I needed to understand specific things. I'm not worried about spoilers--I almost always spoil myself in the process of trying to decide if I would like a show or not, so they don't bother me all that much.

As to Rory shooting Amy, I don't think I actually ever wondered why it happened, but now that you mention it, it is a bit odd without context.

I'm not worried about spoilers--I almost always spoil myself in the process of trying to decide if I would like a show or not, so they don't bother me all that much.
Heh. This is me too. But some folks are a lot more picky!

Yes - I saw that vid - gorgeous work and like you say, somehow manages to bypass the parts of the story that I am afraid of by convincing me it's meant to be messy and complicated and frightening instead of glib; intelligent instead of clever? I guess we'll see how the second half of the series spins out?

As to your last point, that's actually a very interesting point. I'm not sure I agree that they would have known that the TARDIS would keep her safe? Since they didn't know she'd be in it necessarily? Though if they did that's an interesting viewpoint and the idea of River without context is likewise fascinating.

But what really does grab me is your point that the plan definitely looks more like trying to stop River from existing than anything else. I mean, I'd already partially clocked that because Moffat had said there was a reason why the Silence blew up the universe on Amy and Rory's wedding day and as soon as it was revealed that was also River's date of conception, and all the stuff about whether or not she's a weapon, I figured someone was trying to prevent River, by blowing up the thing that made her special (the TARDIS) on the day she would have been conceived. But thinking about everything else as directed attacks on her too is new - not necessarily just collateral they could not have predicted, particularly your point about why Rory kills Amy. Which works okay as just him being programmed to kill any allies of the Doctor, but is far more interesting if it's yet another safety to prevent River's existence.

Again...I guess we await the second half of the season?

I think they knew she was in the TARDIS- the fact whoever it was dragged it to a specific date and spoke over the loudspeaker, suggests to me they can somehow see inside it. I've had a feeling that there's a big, scary, omnipresent being keeping track of everything team TARDIS does for a while now.
Maybe they didn't know it would keep her safe, or maybe they did know, like the explosion was meant to be a Pandorica for River- keeping her trapped forever.

The vid does pretty much posit River as the center of a horror story, doesn't it? (I'm drawn back to the Jekyll parallels.) Which, admittedly, is not what I thought I was signing on for and frames her in a much more victimized way than I'd ever think to on my own (so much so that it took me several watches to really shift around to that mindset), but at the same time . . . I think I do want to watch that, if handled well. Those are real threats, that's a meaningful struggle, and as much as I love watching River Song, force of nature, I'd like to see her seriously challenged too. It's the difference between getting a character to admire and getting one to really tear into and explore, and I've been gaining a love of horror stories of late . . . As you say, though, we pretty much just have to wait and see what Moff actually does with it all.

My first thought was actually that whoever's behind the TARDIS explosion was simply trying to wipe River out, and I think I'd believe it if it went either way. What got me thinking about them perhaps trying to preserve River was just how much emphasis TPO put on the necessity of River being in the TARDIS for it to blow up: the Alliance thought they could prevent it by keeping the pilot away from the TARDIS, they didn't know there was another pilot, the urgency that she simply get out and that that would be enough to prevent it all . . . To me that suggests that whoever set it up figured River would be in there, which for a long time has had me thinking of her as the "catalyst" they needed for the explosion, so maybe they knew enough to know she would be safe . . . Who knows--I may just be too far out on a theorizing limb here, but I don't think it's wildly out of the question. And then if it turns out they just wanted her not to exist, well, that works too.

Again...I guess we await the second half of the season?
*nods numbly* I'm getting tired both of hearing and of saying that, but it keeps on being true . . .

I would love to see River+Echo meta, even though you know my feelings about Dollhouse :P I'm interested in your perspective on Dollhouse since its so different from mine.

>>Watched "The Pandorica Opens" last night for the first time since AGMGTW, and it struck me that that episode makes a lot more sense if you look at it as a systemic attack against River.

I've actually been contemplating this for a while, but I thought people would go "naaah" if I ever posted about it XD I was thinking the other day, who wants River SO DEAD they tried to kill her mom AND blow up the Universe with her in the center of it? Isn't that OVERKILL? Perhaps since she defected to the Doctor's side, the guys that created her to fight him are scared of their combined power? And perhaps her apology ["I'm sorry, my love..."] is because she realises this is about her and the Doctor has been caught up in it? IDK.

I'm interested in your perspective on Dollhouse since its so different from mine.
Admittedly my thoughts kinda gloss over some of the icky, exploitative stuff to get to OMG WHAT THE HELL IS ECHO, ANYWAY?!?! I find her totally fascinating--she's like this complete deconstruction of an individual.

I was thinking the other day, who wants River SO DEAD they tried to kill her mom AND blow up the Universe with her in the center of it? Isn't that OVERKILL?
Hahahaha! Seriously. You should have spoken up! I guess I've seen the speculation around a few places that blowing up the TARDIS was really about River, but I hadn't seen anyone bring up Amy being shot or the idea that all of that was orchestrated together. And I think I like the thought that they were trying to keep River but get rid of her antecedents because it makes more sense of the 'destroy everything around her' approach. Otherwise why not just shoot her or something? No need to destroy the universe *and* shoot her mother! Actually, I have this issue with what Kovarian and the Church have planned for the Doctor--if all you wanted to do was shoot him, couldn't you have managed that long ago? I feel like there must be something more substantial that's being orchestrated, you know?

And perhaps her apology ["I'm sorry, my love..."] is because she realises this is about her and the Doctor has been caught up in it? IDK.
Oooo, interesting. I like that.

I did love Echo...<3

Perhaps they wanted to destroy everything around River but keep her alive as a kind of punishment, a "you wanna join the good guys? Here's what we can do to you" kind of thing.

>>if all you wanted to do was shoot him, couldn't you have managed that long ago?

Well, with the timey-wimey, from their perspective they could have tried shooting him *before* putting him in the box? I had an idea the whole blowinguptheuniverse thing was a last ditch attempt to stop what the Doctor does in the future ever happening... from their perspective it should be the end, but from the Doctor's its the start... everything is out of order.

It's got me thinking that if their plan had succeeded, the only thing left in the universe would be River and the Doctor, trapped apart forever. Whatever the Big Bad's issue is it is NOT HAPPY with those two.

Hee--thank you for my Moff brain! *pokes* Hopefully he shall not be needing it himself ; ) 'Tis for a good cause, though!

I had an idea the whole blowinguptheuniverse thing was a last ditch attempt to stop what the Doctor does in the future ever happening...
*nods* I've been feeling for awhile that TPO/TBB is probably in response to something we haven't seen yet--all the whys are just so nebulous and unexplained. Although, when you get right down to it, "why would someone want to destroy the universe?" is a pretty hard thing to justify . . . Hmmm, with this 'why didn't they just try shooting him first?' . . . what if maybe the intent *wasn't* really to end the universe but to get the Doctor to do exactly what he did: wipe himself out of all of space and time in order to bring the universe back? If it weren't for Amy and her freaky memory and the Power of Stories, you might have ended up with a universe more or less as it was but without the Doctor and without River Song . . . I saw a spec that said that River wasn't at Amy and Rory's wedding because that's where she belonged, but that she was "unraveling" in the same way that the Doctor did as he was being unmade, and she had simply followed her timeline all the way back to the day she was conceived so that, essentially, handing over the diary would have been the last thing she did before she disappeared. I don't know if we'd ever get confirmation of that, but I kind of like it as a notion.

It's got me thinking that if their plan had succeeded, the only thing left in the universe would be River and the Doctor, trapped apart forever. Whatever the Big Bad's issue is it is NOT HAPPY with those two.
Wow, that is some impressive spite. You know, I rather love that, no matter what the explanations are for what was going on, the picture will be mind-blowingly epic.

>>why would someone want to destroy the universe?" is a pretty hard thing to justify

Yeah, that's the only issue I have with all my theories. Why do something to your enemies that causes YOU to not exist, as well? Although enemies in the past have been psychotic enough that not existing was also part of their goal... I like your idea that the *point* was to get the Doctor to disappear, though- that's even more effective than locking him up forever... having him simply never exist would make the Earth easier to subjugate in the past as well as the present and future...

...Whoa. River unravelling through time is kind of genius. Her existance is so dependant on the Doctor that that's plausible, plus she's time travelled extensively. And her giving Amy the diary as an adult is a neat kind of symmetry to the Doctor telling Amelia the bed time story. I like that a lot. But then how does she appear at the wedding afterwards? Does she come back when the Doctor does? (scratches head)

Yeah, basically anyone who wants the Doctor out of the way (or like Kovarian's people)--for the fact that he can time travel, killing him doesn't necessarily solve the problem. You could kill him and an earlier him could still pop up later to screw with your plans. The only real solution is to make him never exist.

I guess she'd pop back into existence when the Doctor did? IDK, I don't actually expect to get firm answers about what was going on with her there, but I like the thought of it.

Moff did say that she was there because of "who she is". So maybe it'll click into place when we know more about her. It'll probably be one of those "wait...that was obvious ALL ALONG" things.

I will look into that vid rec. I know zero about Dollhouse but I'd probably still be interested in reading it.

And three: FLAIL! OMG, you are SO, SO right. "blew up the time machine that helped make her what she was, on the very date she was conceived" And hell, they blew up the time machine WITH HER IN IT. If you look at it as an attack on her, that really, really works. And it's later in her timeline too, so if she ends up doing something with the Doctor later in *his* timeline, earlier in hers, it would make sense that when they're attacking her, because of something she does in the Doctor's future, it would be in those early episodes. Which makes one wonder. That's very close to when she dies in the Library. When the TARDIS bring her to that date and then goes haywire (perhaps because they are attacking River/trying to kill her), doesn't it say, "Silence will fall"? And then people have been talking about the title, "Silence in the Library," which makes me wonder . . . Did they actually get her? Meaning, was she set up to go to the Library as a progression of this unseen force trying to unmake her? After all, the Doctor nearly died there. If he died as Ten, that would definitely have affected River being born. Was it a trap to get her (and/or the Doctor)? Starting to feel a bit like a conspiracy theory, but still! I think there's something in what you were saying. Until proven otherwise in canon, this is now my head-canon. And that makes that episode even more interesting for me. Thank you for that.

And it's later in her timeline too, so if she ends up doing something with the Doctor later in *his* timeline, earlier in hers, it would make sense that when they're attacking her, because of something she does in the Doctor's future, it would be in those early episodes.
Huh, I hadn't even gotten to thinking of it as possibly being in response to something she *did* since it seems designed not just to kill her but to wipe out her very existence--thus I assumed the problem was her existence. But that will be something to keep an eye out for!

And then people have been talking about the title, "Silence in the Library," which makes me wonder . . . Did they actually get her? Meaning, was she set up to go to the Library as a progression of this unseen force trying to unmake her?
OoooOOoo . . . I've seen a bunch of people trying to speculate about possible connections to that episode title, but that's the first suggestion I've seen that I really like.

After all, the Doctor nearly died there. If he died as Ten, that would definitely have affected River being born. Was it a trap to get her (and/or the Doctor)?
I'm in a continual state of wonderment that she manages to keep existing at all. I watched the Angels episodes too before I got to TPO, and was just staring at the screen in horror, realizing how, with both the Doctor and Amy there before River was even conceived, any little thing that could have gone wrong might have seen her wink right out of existence! You get to wondering exactly how resilient time is . . . does time want River Song alive, thus granting a certain margin of error and failsafe where, even if things change, everything else rearranges enough to make sure she still happens? (Which might explain why whoever's going after her saw reason to kill her mother *and* blow up the TARDIS *and* lock away the Doctor *and* end the universe . . . Is she like a cockroach? Pesky Time Lady, just won't die!) Or is everything really as fragile as it seems and liable to fly apart with the smallest mistake?

Until proven otherwise in canon, this is now my head-canon. And that makes that episode even more interesting for me. Thank you for that.
*g* Glad you like!

Ohhh, that's brilliant!! Wow! *Stares* It makes loads of sense, too...seems the Doctor got it wrong again. Tis not all about Amy or him, it's all about River in the end. Hasn't it always been?

And I like that idea....maybe there is an opposing faction to her creators? That would make loads of sense, too. Someone trying to stop her from being made, by unmaking the time-lines that put her in play. Only they didn't succeed and actually set the course for her and the Doctor's destruction.

*Is thinky*

You laid this out gorgeously! Thank you!

Thank you : )

Tis not all about Amy or him, it's all about River in the end. Hasn't it always been?
Well, quite possibly they're after River for reasons doing with him? But it's always all about River . . . I swear, I manage to relate *everything* on this show to River. Everything. And yet the most consistent mistake I make in judging it is by underestimating just how much it's All. About. Her.

And I like that idea....maybe there is an opposing faction to her creators? That would make loads of sense, too. Someone trying to stop her from being made, by unmaking the time-lines that put her in play.
*nods* I've been wondering for awhile if there isn't actually more than one major force in play here, trying to manipulate things. At the very least, I wonder if the Silence and Kovarian's people are not on the same side? Or if they're both being manipulated by something greater that's pulling all the strings? Something doesn't add up in what we've seen so far.

*Is thinky*
Yay \o/ Always my goal!

Re: Observations about Pandorica - You're so much better than I am at making connections and figuring things out, and you could be really onto something here! It makes a lot of sense when you think about it from a River-centric POV. But who would be trying to stop River from existing? Madam Korvarian wants to adopt and raise her, and the Silents use the Spacesuit to protect her. And why does the Alliance think its the Doctor who makes the TARDIS explode? (Or is it that he caused this whole thing by introducing Amy & Rory into the TARDIS and allowing them to conceive a baby with a 'Time Head' that later becomes his wife?) It's a great idea you have here, but once again we have far too many questions than answers from Moffat!

RE: Vid Rec - it isn't working for me, is it on youtube?

Lj embedding has been wonky lately, I've found. You've clicked through to her vid page? If the embedded video's not there, try the streaming or download links just under the header.

It's a great idea you have here, but once again we have far too many questions than answers from Moffat!
Thank you! And I have to agree. I certainly don't have any good answers, but it does seem to me like we barely have an idea of what was actually going on in the season five finale. I'm suspecting that there may, in fact, be several forces with competing goals all pulling strings here . . .

I get the sense that, in a strange twist, the Alliance will end up being the goodies to Mme Korvarian's baddies. Plus I get a sense from the teasers we've seen so far that River's morality might be played with - especially since, if they don't reclaim her, she'll be brought up as a weapon for evil. It'd be great to see 'time being rewritten' and a very evil River for the remainder of the series that they either have to fix or kill.

As I'm waiting for the vid to load, and since I don't know much about Dollhouse, I'll skip to #3.

I'd like to subscribe to this theory, please. Your brain is marvellous. Now that I think about it, a lot of plot threads that used to be solved with "it was all about Amy and/or the Doctor and/or Rory" can now also be "all about River". Hmm.

*g* Thank you! There is an awful lot to be re-thunk, and no doubt we'll be doing it all over again after the next batch of episodes. Darn ; )

Watched "The Pandorica Opens" last night for the first time since AGMGTW, and it struck me that that episode makes a lot more sense if you look at it as a systemic attack against River... Think about it: they locked her husband up in a box so he can't help her, had her father shoot her mother before her mother could even have her, and blew up the time machine that helped make her what she was, on the very date she was conceived.

Holy crap. o.o So why does this person want to take River out of her context? So they can control her?

*eyebrow waggle* Personally, I never much liked all the Omega theories floating around until I read this review that suggested he might have finangled River's existence so he could have a Time Lord Eve. That would make a certain amount of sense.

Really I don't know, though--it's hard to think of theories that make sense when someone's plan apparently involves ending the universe . . .

Wow, if it turned out to be someone with a connection to Omega, I think I might kill myself with flailing. Especially if Benedict Cumberbatch is involved somehow (okay, not this series but maybe next one?).

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